Single Action vs. Double Action

That 625 would be right up your alley!

UncleEd said:

Thank you for answering my question in Posting #48.

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So sad. Wannabe vigilante/keyboard warrior. Must have been quite the blow the poor kid took. No hope at all.

AlexanderA said:

Shooting double-action well with a revolver takes a lot of practice. Why spend all the time mastering what is basically an obsolete weapon?

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Because learning to properly shoot double action revolver will improve all other styles of shooting revolver, pistol and rifle.
Staging the trigger press and steering the front sight are acquired skills!

AlexanderA said:

I like single action revolvers, and double action revolvers fired single action. I've never been able to get the hang of double action shooting. (The configuration of my hands may have something to do with it.) But, let's face it, this is all nostalgia. All revolvers are obsolete for practical use. Do you see any militaries or police departments still using them?

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You don't get around much do you? Have you even been to a PPC Match? (Police Pistol Combat) Matches and class championships are won by X-count at 50 yards! Smiles

mikemyers said:

Not sure if I want to start yet another thread, but after reading the above responses, I've got a question.

Suppose the full reason for buying a S&W revolver was target shooting, at 15, 25, and 50 yards, which should make it equally good for shooting steel plates. Which revolvers might be most appropriate?

I figure a 6" to 8" barrel length would give me the best sight radius.

Since it's not for defense, I don't see any need for it to be able to shoot magnum loads, meaning 38 Special should be fine, and I would probably shoot the same lead wadcutters I make now for my S&W Model 52.

It doesn't need to be a collector's item either. If the cost is higher because of the gun itself, that's fine, but if the cost is higher because it is rare, that would be a waste.

I would prefer no MIM parts, and definitely no internal lock.

Stocks I expect would be like the typical wood large stocks.

No more than 6 rounds in the cylinder, and 5 would be acceptable (that's all we load in Bullseye).

This thread is about both SA and DA, so it would be good if it could shoot well either way.

It makes no difference if it's black or Stainless Steel.

It would be nice if it was drilled and tapped to accept a red dot sight mount, although I don't plan to do that.

I suspect a "larger" frame would be better than a "smaller" frame.


Guns I'm thinking of include the Model 14 - I don't know about other S&W models to know what to check out. The Model 27 sounds fine, but if I don't soot Magnum loads, something else might be more appropriate. The 586 and 686 sound like they might be a good answer.

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You're talking about PPC Distinguished Revolver Class! Very popular are 6" M14's and 586/686's!

P.S. We've probably read each other's post on the B/E Forum!

JJFitch said:

Have you even been to a PPC Match? (Police Pistol Combat) Matches and class championships are won by X-count at 50 yards! Smiles

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I haven't and I have no desire to do so. The only competition shooting I've done was CAS and that is single actions only.

I've known a few officers in a 200+ officer department who still carried a revolver as a primary until they retired a few years back. Some still use them as BUGs. The S&W 327 was developed or at least employed for the SWAT shield man to use.

I remember seeing street officers in S. Korea armed with revolvers about 10 years ago. I believe that Japan still arms its officers with revolvers.

Outdated, sure. Obsolete, no, just different purposes or cultures. If everyone is disarmed of firearms, then "six for sure" is enough. We need higher capacity semi autos in the US because we go up against people with higher capacity semi autos and/or rifles.

@AlexanderA is really right in a sense. Revolvers as duty weapons are obsolete. That is a fact that is hard to argue otherwise given that there are vanishing few LE agencies or militaries still issuing revolvers. But whether a piece of technology is obsolete or not has no relevance on the individual. Obsolete also does not mean the capabilities of the obsolete item are somehow diminished just that something (typically more capable or equally capable with some other new desirable features) has replaced it in common use.

I also agree shooting double-action revolvers well takes more time training and practicing. Most shooters with a given time/ammunition budget will be more proficient in the alotted time/rounds using a modern striker fired handgun than the same time/ammo spent with a revolver. And in this context I am talking about skills beyond fundamental marksmanship, ie standing in a range booth shooting a static target. I am talking about shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, shooting very fast, shooting in bad awkward positions, reloading quickly under pressure etc. I spent many years shooting USPSA and IDPA with a revolver and there is no pretending that revolvers are on par with semi-auto in that or similar settings. The revolver is at a slight disadvantage with the double-action trigger and starts to fall well behind when most shooters hits the first reload.

Revolvers still have there places where they excel. The are great BUGs and for hunting few semi-autos can compete. I love revolvers and use them far FAR more than semi-autos for CCW, woods carry, hunting, and competition but that is because I like revolvers not because I think they are somehow better than semi-autos.

Single action only revolvers are right out though, even when I am wearing a wide brimmed hat you will find a double action revolver on my hip.

-rambling

TL;DR: Revolvers are obsolete and I still love them.

I think y’all need to look up the meaning of “obsolete” and take this idiotic argument to the Manbun/Neckbeard forum, where it belongs. The “Whatever LEO’s use, everything else is ‘obsolete’,” argument is a canard, a red herring, a straw-man argument for banning the civilian use of firearms. The PRIMARY arm of civilian, municipal law enforcement - “beat cops” - is the radio, then the taser, then the baton, I’m not sure where handcuffs are in that line-up but I’m sure they are considered a law enforcement tool for ending hostility so they sure do belong in there somewhere; and, finally a firearm, if unavoidable. That is what LEO’s are required to use first: non-lethal force. A firearm is their weapon of last resort. Therefore, ALL firearms are “obsolete” as a front-line, first-use means of ending a hostile confrontation by law enforcement. Turn them in, you don’t need them, and go buy a taser. Right? Not hardly!

Bottom line, I’m not a cop. I don’t have the legal protection or obligation of law enforcement. As a civilian, I do not go looking for trouble; police officers are paid to do that. As a civilian, I am not prescribed a weapons roster nor is the order of operations dictated to me by a central authority as are the weapons and methods of police officers. Is that what y’all want? YOU are restricted and held accountable just like a police officer but without the legal protections? Don’t be stupid. Arguing that a weapon loses its effectiveness and is made obsolete because it is not a standard-issue piece of equipment for LEO’s is tantamount to declaring the 2-door convertible obsolete because no law enforcement or military agency uses them for patrol duty. It’s stupid. Revolvers work. Period. They are not “obsolete” so long as that holds true.

My 2 cents and worth everything you paid for it.

Now, can we get back to how best to learn to use a revolver?

trackskippy said:

They are only obsolete if you are.

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At age 77, I'm increasingly "obsolete." But at least I have guns that are up to date (along with the old ones, of course).

IlikeSA said:

I remember seeing street officers in S. Korea armed with revolvers about 10 years ago.

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There was a scandal in Greece recently where the prison guards were complaining about being issued revolvers, when all the other LE agencies had modern semi pistols. The guards who could afford it, were buying pistols on their own to replace the revolvers.

Merriam-Webster defines Obsolete 1a : no longer in use or no longer useful. (notice the OR between those two clauses)

If you are going to say something is obsolete there needs to be context. The slide rule is obsolete as a mathematical tool in engineering but it still fun to use sometimes. A revolver is not obsolete as a hunting handgun. A revolver is not obsolete as a CCW weapon. A revolver is obsolete as a duty weapon. Context matters.



It always puzzles me why people get defensive about something they like being called obsolete. I seek out obsolete technology because I like learning how it use to be done before new technologies replaced it. That applies to my guns as well as most of the other tools in my life. I have a CNC milling machine sitting right next to my anvil made in the mid 1800's I still use both despite the anvil being obsolete as a manufacturing tool.

mcb said:

Merriam-Webster defines Obsolete 1a : no longer in use or no longer useful. (notice the OR between those two clauses)

If you are going to say something is obsolete there needs to be context. The slide rule is obsolete as a mathematical tool in engineering but it still fun to use sometimes. A revolver is not obsolete as a hunting handgun. A revolver is not obsolete as a CCW weapon. A revolver is obsolete as a duty weapon. Context matters.

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It always puzzles me why people get defense about something they like being called obsolete. I seek out obsolete technology because I like learning how it use to be done before new technologies replaced it. That applies to my guns as well as most of the other tools in my life. I have a CNC milling machine sitting right next to my anvil made in the mid 1800's I still use both despite the anvil being obsolete as a manufacturing tool.

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LOL!!! Watch “Forged in Fire” and you won’t think the anvil is obsolete anymore.
I object to the misuse of words to try and create conflict where none belongs. Coming to a revolver discussion and contributing nothing to the conversation but to repeat the lie that a tool is obsolete is offensive. And it is a lie.

GeoDudeFlorida said:

LOL!!! Watch “Forged in Fire” and you won’t think the anvil is obsolete anymore.
I object to the misuse of words to try and create conflict where none belongs. Coming to a revolver discussion and contributing nothing to the conversation but to repeat the lie that a tool is obsolete is offensive. And it is a lie.

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Its not a lie if the proper context is given. Saying the revolver is obsolete as a LEO sidearms seems to fit the definition of obsolete pretty well.

I do watched Forge in Fire but that does not change the fact that the anvil is obsolete as a tool for modern manufacturing. I have made a few knives and other gadgets myself on my anvil and home built gas forge and enjoy the process and learning how to do the old blacksmithing but that does not change the fact that the anvil is obsolete technology for mass production of forged goods. I am also a practicing mechanical engineer. No major mass production manufactures makes knives (or anything else) on an anvil. Only hobbyist and enthusiast for old technology and the old ways do.

AlexanderA said:

At age 77, I'm increasingly "obsolete." But at least I have guns that are up to date (along with the old ones, of course).

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You have 10 years on me, and Im doing my best to keep up.

Im also doing my best not to fall behind either, although from time to time, things are starting to feel like there's a brake dragging somewhere.

I shoot them all, new and old, and appreciate them all for what they are.

I do agree single action is easier but with double action to be accurate you really need to stage the trigger on each shot, which effectively makes in single action once you take away the long pull. Most revolvers stage pretty well but I've had a few over the years that wouldn't stage very consistently.

I dont "stage" per se, but just vary the speed of the stroke to fit the need. Sometimes its a quick "stroke", other times, its a slow "roll". Either way, its always smooth, and there is no stopping or hitches in the stroke.

mcb said:

Its not a lie if the proper context is given. Saying the revolver is obsolete as a LEO sidearms seems to fit the definition of obsolete pretty well.

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I saw an Alabama deputy carrying a Uberti Cattleman as a duty weapon.

SDGlock23 said:

I do agree single action is easier but with double action to be accurate you really need to stage the trigger on each shot, which effectively makes in single action once you take away the long pull. Most revolvers stage pretty well but I've had a few over the years that wouldn't stage very consistently.

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Not so.

In staging, that is pausing, you're just as likely to
pull off target as stay on. You'd be better off
just NOT DAing. Just be a SA shooter.

Would it not be that the belly gun is going to do fine in double action as most self defense situations for civilians are pretty close in. Still, practice is a good idea.

hawg said:

I saw an Alabama deputy carrying a Uberti Cattleman as a duty weapon.

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I got passed last week on my way to work by a beautiful '56 mustang running a Holly carburetor and that does not change the fact that the carburetors on highway passenger vehicles are obsolete and have been since the early 1990's.

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As for staging a double action trigger I have always heard that is a bad plan. I am not sure I actually stage a trigger but the rate at which I sweep the trigger changes dramatically between big close targets and distant small targets. You can practically slap that trigger on USPSA metric target at <7 yards and not even use the rear sight and still get alphas, a 6-inch plate at 30 yards you're pulling that trigger slow and smooth and focusing on good sight picture especially for the last bit of the trigger pull.

mcb said:

I got passed last week on my way to work by a beautiful '56 mustang

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A '56 mustang?" Those things a pretty rare, aren't they?