Taking a prohibited person shooting. Is it okay?

Gun4Fun90 said:

Yeah it's sad he is a nice kid. Who did something stupid when he was younger.

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Probably less than stellar legal advice too. That part is spilled milk though, it’s the path he walks now that’s important. Good on you for wanting to keep him on the right one.

If you (or he) considers air guns, make sure they're not considered "firearms" in his jurisdictions. Some states actually do consider them as such.

A quick question for legal minds... does a "withhold of adjudication " on a minor felony change the individual's status?

lemaymiami said:

A quick question for legal minds... does a "withhold of adjudication " on a minor felony change the individual's status?

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I'd never heard of that term (shocking, I know, what with me not being an attorney and all). So I looked it up.

It would seem to me that it wouldn't have an effect because there's no actual conviction.

I found the following about it, which seems to confirm this:


Withhold of Adjudication (Withhold).
When you plead no contest (nolo contendere) or guilty, you will be sentenced. One portion of your sentencing is whether you will be convicted. The judge can either adjudicate you guilty or withhold adjudication of guilt.

What is a withhold of adjudication?
A withhold of adjudication is a withholding of conviction. This means that you are not convicted of the offense. However, it will be on your record and would have either been found guilty by a jury or pled guilty or no contest.

What are the benefits of a withhold of adjudication?
A withhold of adjudication has many benefits.

Employment opportunities
Some employers are only concerned with convictions, so they may not even ask about a case where you received a withhold of adjudication because it means that you are not technically convicted, so you can answer on an employment application that you have not been convicted of the offense.

Ability to seal or expunge
Also, if you receive a withhold of adjudication on most offenses and have never been adjudicated guilty of any offense before, you may be able to get your criminal offense sealed.

Maintain your civil liberties
If the case is a felony and you receive a withhold of adjudication, you would not be a convicted felon and lose your right to vote, hold public office, possess firearms, and suffer other collateral consequences of a felony conviction.

Avoid collateral consequences
Some convictions (adjudications of guilt) have collateral consequences like driver's license suspensions, denial of public benefits, and enhancements for future offenses. Many of these collateral consequences are avoided by a withhold of adjudication. There are too many statutes and too many collateral consequences to list here, but the general rule of thumb is that if you can't get the offense dropped or dismissed and you don't want to go to trial, a withhold of adjudication may be your best option if available.

Why wouldn't I want to accept a withhold of adjudication?
A withhold of adjudication is still a consequence of an acknowledgement that you either committed the crime or the State had enough evidence to convict you of the crime. It will still be on your record and you may or may not be able to get it sealed. You would still receive a sentence, which could include jail or prison, probation, fines, community service hours and other consequences. If you are not guilty, if the evidence is weak, or if the State's offer is too high, you may not want to accept a negotiated disposition that includes a withhold.

Non-U.S. citizens - If you are not a United States citizen, a withhold of adjudication may lead to deportation, your inadmissibility into the country, denial of naturalization and other negative immigration consequences. Never plead guilty or no contest to any criminal offense without speaking with an immigration attorney first. Even the most minor criminal offense and a withhold and court costs could mean deportation. Give us a call so we can discuss the immigration consequences of your criminal offense.

Why wouldn't I be offered a withhold of adjudication?
A withhold is usually only offered for first time offenders or offenders with little prior criminal history and only if the charge is non-violent. The higher the degree of felony, the less likely you are to be offered a withhold. Of course, these are very general guidelines and each case, each judge, and each prosecutor is different. Some cases are weaker and your bargaining leverage is greater. Some judges and prosecutors are stricter and some are more lenient.

SOURCE:

https://www.slgattorneysflorida.com/what-is-a-withhhold-or-a-withhold-of-adjudication.html

All those years ago, as a cop (1973- 1995) withholds were quite common for first time offenders down here in south Florida. I actually have a relative that earned one the hard way... That's the reason for my question. I'd speculate that it would always cause difficulty with a background check - but was interested if there were any other consequences for firearms questions... For the "under indictment" question I suspect (I'm just a layman... ) that would be a moot point once any probation was satisfactorily completed...

The "under indictment" consideration might or might not be a concern - once any probation period was satisfactorily completed... but that's why I'm asking here - where we do have folks who might know...

Stated simply, if adjudication is withheld... is the individual in fact a "prohibited person"...

12Bravo20 said:

Again, you really need to check state laws were you live. In some states a felon cannot have access to any type of weapon to include muzzleloaders and archery equipment. Not sure about air guns though.

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Could be even stranger than that. I have a good friend that worked within the prison system that told me the way AL law was written it was a essentially illegal for a felon to fire anything that has a trigger, even a recurve bow with a trigger release would be a no go. He also said it was never enforced, as in had never even been challenged.

FWIW I have no idea if it’s true or not

Spats McGee said:

I'm not licensed in FL, so take this with a grain of salt. That said, I think what you're talking about what we in AR would call a "pass to dismiss." The prosecution "passes the case," holding it in abeyance for some period of time, let's say a year. When the year is up, if the defendant has complied with any terms and conditions attached to the pass (like drug or alcohol treatment, maybe anger management classes, etc.), the case is then dismissed, just as if the defendant had beaten the case at trial. At that point, he or she would no longer be "under indictment," as it would have been dismissed. Does that answer your question?

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OK, here's another question, then...

I'm somewhat familiar with the term "withdrawn without prejudice" and "withdrawn with prejudice" with respect to the trial attorney in the military judicial system.

It seems to me that the "abeyance for some period of time" is kinda like "withdrawn without prejudice". But that does not imply that any point BEYOND that time is in any way like "withdrawn with prejudice".

SO...I did some reading and would like to see how close to the mark I came on this.

First of all, I say this (kinda like "withdrawn with prejudice") because in the legal world certain words and phrases have specific meanings and if they are not formally used it seems to me like assuming a given phrase "means" the same thing as another phrase is less than wise. Charges are never actually withdrawn, but it's more like the court case is "put on hold", as it were.

Second, "withhold of adjudication", according to what I've read on legal sites about this, presumes there's either an admission of guilt involved or a claim of no contest. Which pretty much means if the case DID go to trial, a conviction is darn near carved in stone.

Third, the charges are never formally dropped (withdrawn) at all, even following the satisfactory completion of whatever "probationary" conditions are set. What it appears to ALLOW a person to do is petition to have the case sealed.


WHICH LEAD ME DOWN ANOTHER RABBIT HOLE...what does "sealed" mean.

My Google-fu found that there are two terms applicable to this discussion on this aspect: "expungement" and "sealed".

Expungement means a conviction/arrest is removed from a person's record. Sealed means it's still there, it just can't be accessed or re-opened without a court order. This is not a "dismissal".

Dismissal meaning a finding of no guilt and no conviction. It CAN'T be a dismissal because there's an admission of guilt or no contest involved.


MY CONCLUSION:

Withhold of adjudication is more of a way of a judge imposing some kind of corrective action WITHOUT having to first go through a trial to obtain a conviction. Charges are never actually withdrawn at any point, with or without prejudice. If the actions are completed satisfactorily, then the individual may petition to have his/her case sealed...which is not an expungement from the record. This means that there is the possibility that the case MAY be re-opened at a future date PROVIDED a judge issues a court order, presumably at the request of the prosecution.

The more I read, the more layers I find...so my conclusion may have the right "form" but lacking in all the "details".


How close did I come?

Muzzleloaders are a no go for felon possession (constructive possession) in Florida. Air guns are allowed according to state hunting laws.

https://myfwc.com/hunting/regulations/felony/

Frank Ettin said:

I'm afraid there's really no good way to know, at least in this venue.

All of this sort of stuff is state specific. Each State has its own set of procedural rules and uses various terminology. And how some of these procedural mechanism would apply could be somewhat fact dependent as well.

A reasonably useful sort of state specific analysis would be a bunch of research and a good law review article. A fifty State review would be a book.

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Well..crud! No wonder attorney's get paid so much per hour! It's a convoluted as some engineering jobs, only without any actual hard and fast "laws of physics" to operate by!

RetiredUSNChief said:

No wonder attorney's get paid so much per hour!

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Yep. Anybody can read a law. Knowing which laws to read and how to interpret and apply them relative to a particular issue requires an extraordinary skill set.

So... I guess the answer to my question is "It depends...."

lemaymiami said:

So... I guess the answer to my question is "It depends...."

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Your best bet is probably contact a lawyer in your area for the best and correct answer.

From the OP if the person in question is now in his early 20's, it can't be THAT long ago that he "did something stupid" and got a felony record making him a prohibited person.

(If he was actually a juvie when he committed the offense, would that still affect him as an adult?)

HankB said:

From the OP if the person in question is now in his early 20's, it can't be THAT long ago that he "did something stupid" and got a felony record making him a prohibited person.

(If he was actually a juvie when he committed the offense, would that still affect him as an adult?)

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Yes it would still effect him, especially now with the passage of the latest gun control bill into law.

For the OP, your best bet is to have your friend talk to a lawyer in your state that is well versed in any and all laws that would effect him from possessing a firearm or weapon. None of us can give you legal advice on this matter. This includes members that are lawyers but do not practice in your state.

And yes he would be in possession of a weapon as soon as you hand it to him while at the range. This also makes you an accessory to the crime (if committed)