ATF going door to door

Am I the only one with déjà vu?
ATF under Obama did the exact same thing mostly in border states. This is going to be standard practice anytime a Democrat is in the White House.

While it’s a complete waste of time and tax payer resources, it’s a request. It’s not an accusation or anything, if you know how silly government bureaucracies work this is perfectly predictable.
Someone on committee, in a meeting, looking for points with the big guy said “I have an idea about how we could fight straw purchases! … we could randomly check people that make multiple purchases to see if they still have the guns?”
Everyone at the table thinks (or pretends) it’s brilliant. Zero critical thinking is involved, it’s doing “something” and it’s legal.


Personally I would politely refuse, but I want lose sleep over it.

CatManDo said:

You'd better look at the video again; The Goon Squad CLEARLY had the database in their hands.

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You’d better do some reading.

Good Ol' Boy said:

Anyone who feels like what happened in the video is "ok" is part of the problem.

I'll just leave it at that as to hopefully sidestep another timeout.

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There’s a difference between understanding that an event is being misrepresented to inflame people and being happy about the existing law. People are so addicted to outrage they no longer need to verify an event is truthfully depicted before wailing and gnashing their teeth.

I'm probably an outlier in this instance, but I don't particularly have a problem with the ATF doing checks like this. A few years ago a manufacturer sent me back an AR lower they had to fix. The package was misdelivered so I reported it missing. A few weeks after that a very nice lady from the ATF called to see if the lower ever showed up. I told her it eventually did once the post office went back and got it from the place they misdelivered it. Easy peasy, no threats or anything.

Now if the ATF had done a Roger Stone type pre-dawn raid on this guy then I'd think different. I'm sure the agent brought along the local police because of SOP, plus they are likely the ones where the paperwork listing the multiple firearm purchase originated.

We have a lot of thugs and cartel baddies and teenagers with guns they should not have here in the Houston area, and it would be awesome if law enforcement could somehow pre-empt them having guns before they use them for evil. Will checks like the one above help stop that? I doubt it. But I don't see it as an egregious overreach. Like I said, I'm probably an outlier in this case. I am in most instances anyway. Your mileage may vary.

The ATF can trace any firearm they want to, and have had the capability for years. If a gun shows up at a crime scene, they know from the manufacturer which retailer that gun was sent to. The retailer than provides the personal information of the person who filled out the 4473 and took possession of it. Then they go visit Joe Blow, and if the trail ends with him and he either didn't report it stolen of have a transfer form, he has some explaining to do. Most wouldn't have a transfer form, but they will use tactics to extract where that firearm was transferred, and it's likely a very good idea to assist them at that point, if that gun was with someone else before the crime took place.

Keep in mind, this doesn't only apply to guns in crime scenes. They can find out at any time, who bought any AR-15 from any store. They won't push it past that until the gun shows up at a crime scene, typically. Those of you who don't think there is at least some type of de facto registry are living in La La Land. Private sales are a different story, but the first guy who purchased that from a Licensed Dealer is the first stop in the trace.

CatManDo said:

You'd better look at the video again; The Goon Squad CLEARLY had the database in their hands.

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This is incorrect. What they had was a copy of a Form 3310.4 or copies of multiple Form 3310.4. forms. These forms have been standard since the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968. See the links that I posted earlier in post #8

Good Ol' Boy said:

Anyone who feels like what happened in the video is "ok" is part of the problem.

I'll just leave it at that as to hopefully sidestep another timeout.

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What those agents were doing was following up on a ATF form 3310.4 the is mandatory for FFLs to submit every time multiple handguns are sold to one person within a 5 business day period. This has been law since 1968. I have had to fill out and submit 3310.4 forms many times when I had my FFL, just like all FFL holders must do per federal law.

Again we don't know the full complete story. There might be other information we do not know that led to the agents following up on the 3310.4 report. Now if it was a no knock search, then I would have to agree with you. It is evident that the agents did not have a warrant otherwise we probably would have seen a lot more officers/agents present and also seen firearms being confiscated.

Odd. I have had an FFL for 9 years and have only had my books checked once. I guess that ATF is too busy checking individuals.

Good Ol' Boy said:

Anyone who feels like what happened in the video is "ok" is part of the problem.

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Oh grow up.
I don't think a single member has posted that he likes the fact that ATF and local LE went to that guys house. I certainly don't.

This is a gun forum and like most gun forums is brimming with ardent supporters of the Second Amendment. You know that.

What you confuse as THR members being "ok" with that video, is THR members that know its a normal, not uncommon and very old procedure by ATF. It's old news. It happens often. And its been happening since 1968. Getting your shorts in a wad because of this video? You're late to the party pal, that ship sailed a half century ago.

Where was your ire, angst and fury last week? Last month? Last Year?

Yeah, I thought so.

12Bravo20 said:

This is incorrect. What they had was a copy of a Form 3310.4 or copies of multiple Form 3310.4. forms. These forms have been standard since the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968. See the links that I posted earlier in post #8



What those agents were doing was following up on a ATF form 3310.4 the is mandatory for FFLs to submit every time multiple handguns are sold to one person within a 5 business day period. This has been law since 1968. I have had to fill out and submit 3310.4 forms many times when I had my FFL, just like all FFL holders must do per federal law.

Again we don't know the full complete story. There might be other information we do not know that led to the agents following up on the 3310.4 report. Now if it was a no knock search, then I would have to agree with you. It is evident that the agents did not have a warrant otherwise we probably would have seen a lot more officers/agents present and also seen firearms being confiscated.

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The NFA and GCA are unconstitutional so I'm not sure why you're bringing those up.

Its unbelievable how many folks are willing to allow things like the OP's video to stand because they've been brainwashed into "this is how things are".

I am NOT advocating ANYTHING, just stating that unconstitutional "laws" aren't laws.

Folks have every right to just not interact with agents acting in such a manor as the OP's video.

12Bravo20 said:

This is incorrect. What they had was a copy of a Form 3310.4 or copies of multiple Form 3310.4. forms. These forms have been standard since the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968. See the links that I posted earlier in post #8...

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You're telling us the Forms 3310.4 documenting when more than one handgun was purchased by an individual within any five day period and organized as to be a searchable data base, is not a data base containing information about an individual when two or more handguns were purchased within any five day period?

MistWolf said:

You're telling us the Forms 3310.4 documenting when more than one handgun was purchased by an individual within any five day period and organized as to be a searchable data base, is not a data base containing information about an individual when two or more handguns were purchased within any five day period?

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I never said is was or was not a searchable data base. What I stated is that all FFL holders are required to fill out and submit the Form 3310.4 anytime multiple handguns are sold to the same individual within a 5 day period. While I couldn't tell from watching the video, I am will to bet what the agents had were printed copies of the Form 3310.4 or multiple copies of different 3310.4's.

DeepSouth said:

Am I the only one with déjà vu?
ATF under Obama did the exact same thing mostly in border states. This is going to be standard practice anytime a Democrat is in the White House.

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This has zippity do dah to do with who is in the White House.
Barack Obama was the best gun salesman in history. His attempts at gun control were farcical. NOTHING was done under the eight years of Obama. Compare that to Donald Trumps gun control successes in his four years.

Bump stocks? ATF under Obama said they were perfectly fine, not a machine gun. Same with "arm braces".

While it’s a complete waste of time and tax payer resources, it’s a request. It’s not an accusation or anything, if you know how silly government bureaucracies work this is perfectly predictable.
Someone on committee, in a meeting, looking for points with the big guy said “I have an idea about how we could fight straw purchases! … we could randomly check people that make multiple purchases to see if they still have the guns?”
Everyone at the table thinks (or pretends) it’s brilliant. Zero critical thinking is involved, it’s doing “something” and it’s legal.


Personally I would politely refuse, but I want lose sleep over it.

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Completely agree!

Good Ol' Boy said:

The NFA and GCA are unconstitutional so I'm not sure why you're bringing those up.

Its unbelievable how many folks are willing to allow things like the OP's video to stand because they've been brainwashed into "this is how things are".

I am NOT advocating ANYTHING, just stating that unconstitutional "laws" aren't laws.

Folks have every right to just not interact with agents acting in such a manor as the OP's video.

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I am bringing it up since it has been the law since 1968 and all FFL holders must submit this form when required in order to not get into legal trouble. I get it that you are totally agains the NFA and GCA. I don't agree with this either. But it is what it is, a FFL holder must submit the forms or risk losing their license and/or face jail time.

For most of us that have had a FFL or those that still have their FFL, it is important to do things right and follow the laws whether we agree with those laws or not. Otherwise we would lose our license and face possible prison time.

Guess I've gotten lucky the past 30 months buying guns. I know 2 or 3 times I've bought multiple handguns and no visit yet.

I guess I'm a outlier. I have a problem with the fact that ATF exists at all.

Mars5l said:

Guess I've gotten lucky the past 30 months buying guns. I know 2 or 3 times I've bought multiple handguns and no visit yet.

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Did you buy different handguns at each purchase or were all of them the same make and/or model?

That can make a difference on whether you get a visit or not.

For the guy in the video, we do not know all of the circumstances in his situation. Did he buy multiple copies of the same brand or model? Is there a history of possible straw purchases?

For those that think I am sticking up for the ATF. No I am not doing so. All I am saying is that multiple handgun sales within 5 business days must be reported and it is the ATF's job to follow up on those forms.

dogtown tom said:

This has zippity do dah to do with who is in the White House.

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Well it’s simply a fact that it happened when BHO was President. If it happened when Trump was President I never heard of it, which admittedly doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And it’s a fact that it’s happening again while Biden is president.

To be fair 3 may not be a trend, or a pattern but it certainly could be the beginnings of one. Time will tell. But I’d put my money on it continues to develop into an obvious pattern.

miamivicedade said:

The ATF can trace any firearm they want to, and have had the capability for years. If a gun shows up at a crime scene, they know from the manufacturer which retailer that gun was sent to. The retailer than provides the personal information of the person who filled out the 4473 and took possession of it. Then they go visit Joe Blow, and if the trail ends with him and he either didn't report it stolen of have a transfer form, he has some explaining to do. Most wouldn't have a transfer form, but they will use tactics to extract where that firearm was transferred, and it's likely a very good idea to assist them at that point, if that gun was with someone else before the crime took place..

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What is a "transfer form"?
Once a firearm has been transferred from a licensed dealer to the buyer/transferee, no further federal forms are required. If the buyer/transferee chooses to gift the gun the next day, sell it two months later or trade it for a boat motor, he is not required by any federal law to have any sort of form. Further, no federal law requires Average Joe to report the loss or theft of a firearm.

They can find out at any time, who bought any AR-15 from any store.

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No they can't.
ATF has no idea who I transferred a particular firearm to, or what gun was transferred. They don't get a copy of the 4473.

They won't push it past that until the gun shows up at a crime scene, typically.

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Well.........ya gotta have the gun in order to initiate a firearm trace. ATF National Tracing Center will contact the manufacturer > distributor > dealer > initial sale. The dealer emails in a copy of that 4473. Local PD or ATF then contacts that buyer/transferee to see if he has further information. If he doesn't, the trace ends. Thats it. It's over. It ain't TV where gun traces solve crimes.

Those of you who don't think there is at least some type of de facto registry are living in La La Land.

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No sir. You certainly don't know the first think about what a firearm "registry" actually is. Your understanding of "they can find out at any time" is so completely wrong that LaLa Land is closer to reality than you.

Private sales are a different story, but the first guy who purchased that from a Licensed Dealer is the first stop in the trace

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Oh heck no! Private sales are exactly the reason your above theory is nonsense. Believe it or not but sometimes gun dealers buy used guns. Then turn around and resell that gun. If you bought a used AR15.....and a police officer ran a trace, how will it trace back to you? It won't. And the reason for that is in La La Land with your mythical gun registry.

Good Ol' Boy said:

The NFA and GCA are unconstitutional so I'm not sure why you're bringing those up.

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Says who?
Post the USSC decision that says as much. After all, the Constitution gives such authority to the Supreme Court.

We BELIEVE them to be unconstitutional and can rant and rave all night long but that doesn't make those laws invalid. The reality is they are valid UNTIL the courts rule them invalid.
And you can do the math on how long they've had to do so.

Its unbelievable how many folks are willing to allow things like the OP's video to stand because they've been brainwashed into "this is how things are".

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Again, where was your ire, angst and fury last week? Last month? Last Year?

I am NOT advocating ANYTHING, just stating that unconstitutional "laws" aren't laws.

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And thats silly. Pretending they aren't laws just because you dont agree?

Folks have every right to just not interact with agents acting in such a manor as the OP's video.

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We know.

12Bravo20 said:

I am bringing it up since it has been the law since 1968 and all FFL holders must submit this form when required in order to not get into legal trouble. I get it that you are totally agains the NFA and GCA. I don't agree with this either. But it is what it is, a FFL holder must submit the forms or risk losing their license and/or face jail time.

For most of us that have had a FFL or those that still have their FFL, it is important to do things right and follow the laws whether we agree with those laws or not. Otherwise we would lose our license and face possible prison time.

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Re-read my post that you just replied to and get back with me.

I would like to know how many times these checks have turned up guns that are no longer in the possession of the purchaser, and what happened then. What can ATF do? I can buy a gun and if I don't like it I'm free to dispose of it. What then?

DeepSouth said:

Well it’s simply a fact that it happened when BHO was President. If it happened when Trump was President I never heard of it, which admittedly doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And it’s a fact that it’s happening again while Biden is president.

To be fair 3 may not be a trend, or a pattern but it certainly could be the beginnings of one. Time will tell. But I’d put my money on it continues to develop into an obvious pattern.

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Oh good grief man, of course it happened during Trumps administration. I'm not denying one bit that it happened during Obama either. I had hoped I had made it clear but I'll restate:

Multiple Sale of Pistols and Revolvers reporting and ATF followups has been going on for FIFTY FOUR YEARS. It went on during every presidential administration, no matter whether Democrat or Republican.

People that woke up this morning, watched the OP's video and are NOW outraged, upset, discombobulated over the outrageous actions depicted in that video?
Where ya'll been the last fifty four years?
Why are you just now learning about multiple sale reporting requirements?
and
How in the heck can you be an effective advocate of the Second Amendment when you don't what it is we are fighting to fix?

medalguy said:

I would like to know how many times these checks have turned up guns that are no longer in the possession of the purchaser, and what happened then. What can ATF do? I can buy a gun and if I don't like it I'm free to dispose of it. What then?

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If that is the case then it is on the ATF to prove that laws were broken or not. Say you bought three different handguns at once and didn't like one of them and you sold it. That probably wouldn't trigger any further investigations. Now if you turned around and sold all three right away, then the ATF would most likely start investigating further. Or if you bought 2 or more of the same make/model, and sold one or more right away then you would get looked at too.

I'll post the link again for those that did not see it on page 1 post #8

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/reporting-multiple-firearms-sales

And yes a copy of the Form 3310.4 must also be sent to the Chief Law Enforcement Official when it is submitted to the ATF. The CLEO could be a city police chief, county sheriff or state police commander. Actually there are three copies that are made . One gets sent to the ATF, one to the CLEO, and the third is attached to the Form 4473.

Good Ol' Boy said:

Re-read my post that you just replied to and get back with me.

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Believe what and how you want. As dogtown tom stated, the laws are legal and constitutional until a court decides otherwise. We don't have to like or agree with the laws but we do have to abide by them if we don't want to go to prison.

Gosh, this must cost the taxpayer a lot of money, to have 5 agents (that likely earn much more $ than I) visiting people about their personal property.


ss

just kidding