Greenwood Park Mall Shooting

I practice on torso targets at 7, 15 and 25 yards for rapid-fire with concealable hand guns.
My last session, alternating on each mag change at 15 and 25 yards with a G27 on rapid fire and reloading as rapidly as I could, I kept all 50 rounds in the torso.
I'm not so sure if I could have done that under fire.
Yep, the kid done good... .

9mmepiphany said:

.it isn't "training" unless there is someone to critique and correct your practice.

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i totally agree. and for most of my shooting life that someone has been me. when something is "off" i go into "trial and error" mode until i fix my problem. when i changed my shooting style, i read an article by brian zinn, modified the instruction to fit me and adopted the style. don't limit your training.

the target tells the tail,

murf

p.s. the hero shot from a supported position. this made all the difference, imo.

Jeff White said:

Even if the young man did engage from 40 yards, what are the chances the same conditions will be there the next time?

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Given the locations where most of these attempted mass shootings occur, I would say that the chances that someone would have a shot out to 40 yards and beyond are very high.

While I'm sure that these "mass shootings" are still very rare in the overall scope of possible defensive senereos one might face, time given to training for one is not wasted. Most will agree that they are not going to become less common.
When by myself I tend to avoid crowded situations like the plague however I commonly get drug into crowds with family. Trying to be situationally aware and prepared to herd this bunch of cats to sanctuary quickly, in a dire situation, holds little promise.
The immediate order to "get down" can be followed with less thought and discussion than to where to run, when, and how far.
Regardless of the odds my training/practice is going to involve a little more extended range time in the future.

Scrapiron45 said:

"…The immediate order to 'get down' can be followed with less thought and discussion than to where to run, when, and how far…"

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Agreed. A brief sheltered pause makes sense to take five seconds to rapidly consider and act upon a plan.

For example, take a moment to see that 100 panicked people are not stampeding into a narrow chokepoint when a viable alternate is also nearby and safer. No sense of jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Just to get a personal benchmark, I tried the Dicken Drill today 10-15-40 Cold. 7 hits.

I think the kid said that his grandfather taught him to shoot. Although that may not be tactical training, that’s marksmanship training. I’ll bet many here who were taught to shoot by their grandfather know how valuable that training was.

Separate from the obvious more popular question of distance is how we "practice"...it isn't "training" unless there is someone to critique and correct your practice.

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I would argue that practice can be “training”.

the action of teaching a person or animal a particular skill

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If you don’t have the skill and learn it through practice, you just trained yourself.

I do it on lots of stuff a shot timer with par time is a great tool if you want quantitative data on your own improvements or to select the best techniques you can utilize.

Some people have an ability to train themselves and sometimes outperform professionals. It’s rare but has happened in many fields.

But more commonly, some people just can’t be trained. Or at best they use lots of recourse to only master the minimum.

I look at that food court on Google Maps and my first question is, how many random mall-goers were in there that day and how were they dispersed? Mostly sitting? Standing to get food? This could have been an absolute bloodbath. There’s a fair amount of concealment (pillars, tables) but all I can say is, thank God that the good guy managed to get some clear shots. Good aim above all.

I will spend extra time on longer range shooting next time I visit the range, for sure.

9mmepiphany said:

how we "practice"...it isn't "training" unless there is someone to critique and correct your practice.

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jmorris said:

I would argue that practice can be “training”.

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Per Merriam Webster, the verb to train has a number of definitions, including:

1a : to teach so as to make fit, qualified, or proficient

2 : to make prepared (as by exercise) for a test of skill.

Both definitions apply to the process of becoming more skilled with defensive tools.

With my 44 revolver, I can do 25 yrds pretty consistently, but not at the rate of fire in this incident. I haven't tried it in a long time, (I will soon) but I could probably do it with my M9, again, not at that rate of fire. I think it would be pretty much out of the question with my sub compact 9mm. As to "what would I do?" we can all theorize-none of knows until the moment is upon us.

What I really want to comment on is this notion that Dickens (the defender) had no training. A lot of gun tubers are now doing videos on "The Dickens Drill" (10 shots/40 yrds/<15 seconds). Those videos make it easy to visualize how demanding that feat is. I shoot a lot of USPSA-nothing as far away at 40 yrds, and I have to train and practice a lot to keep up that pace. I have spent thousands on professional training and who knows how many thousands on ammo. It's possible, but not very likely, that this young man had no training. He was putting in the work at the range somewhere.

If Dickens did this drill again what would be the results? 8 out of 10 again? What if he did the drill but first had to endure 1 minute of hearing gunshots and screaming? Then the gunman appears before him. 8 out of 10 again?

Dickens did great and I’m glad he did. I don’t think I could have performed that well but there are variables in every scenario. It would be unfair to expect him to be able to repeat his performance. It also would never be fair to expect anyone else to repeat his performance.

If the next mass shooter is taken down by 10 shots but only 2 hits and 8 misses into a brick wall, the same praise should be given to that “hero.” Bad guy neutralized and no collateral damage.

This is not to say sloppiness is the goal, but being so perfectly pretty can not be expected.

Kleanbore said:

Only if you happen to know what to practice and how.

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I guess if you don’t know what your good or bad at, it probably doesn’t matter.

Zendude said:

I think the kid said that his grandfather taught him to shoot. Although that may not be tactical training, that’s marksmanship training. I’ll bet many here who were taught to shoot by their grandfather know how valuable that training was.

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I wouldn't assume the grandfather didn't / doesn't himself have tactical training that he passed on. In fact I would assume the opposite, based on the grandson's perfomance in this incident.

A young lady taking level 1 (beginner) pistol in our local class appeared to have an above average understanding of the fundamentals being taught. When the shooting part started she took a few rounds to settle in but quickly found her groove. After the class in conversation she was asked about her previous shooting experience and she explained that she didn't have any, didn't know anyone to ask so she youtubed, found a couple instructors with good presentations and learned the basics of safety, loading, field stripping and sight picture which she practiced until she felt comfortable. She also videoed herself practicing draw, presentation and dry firing so she could compare herself with the online instruction.
Now I don't normally do "selfies" but since I cannot always have another person available to critique my shooting, the video camera has become one of my best training aids.

9mmepiphany said:

I think we would be just as safe to assume that much of his "training" came from playing video games.

Before folks laugh too hard or disregard the above as sarcasm, know that I've seen new recruits in LE execute eye opening tactics...because they saw it done while gaming. ( It was a recruit who executed a tuck-n-roll and come up shooting while practicing clearing a house and surprised by the BG...we were using airsoft guns)

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Using cover, flanking, timing movement. I bet a lot of gamers who play first person shooters understand that stuff better than most average people do.

9mmepiphany said:

I think we would be just as safe to assume that much of his "training" came from playing video games.

Before folks laugh too hard or disregard the above as sarcasm, know that I've seen new recruits in LE execute eye opening tactics...because they saw it done while gaming. ( It was a recruit who executed a tuck-n-roll and come up shooting while practicing clearing a house and surprised by the BG...we were using airsoft guns)

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Wow, that's impressive. I didn't imagine video games were that realistic. But wouldn't he also have to have practiced the movements?