45 vs 10mm

45acp is completely adequate.

1911's are awesome. I own several 1911's and several pistols that are based on them.

But they're not for everyone.

If the OP hasn't shot 1911's much, I would not recommend a $1500 pistol. What if you don't like it?

There's another thread running right now about a $319 Turkish 1911. The owner likes it. It goes bang every time.

I would recommend purchasing an inexpensive 1911 and shooting it a bunch. Pay extra for decent sights. The tiny GI sights are hard to use. The Turkish and Filipino 1911's have good reputations for going bang every time and being reasonably accurate.

If the OP ponies up a very modest sum, like under $450 OTD, they can get a humble 1911 with a decent sights and trigger, and shoot the snot out of it. If they love it and decide they want to invest in an expensive one, great. If they shoot it some and decide they don't like it, NBD. Either way it will be worth $250 or more in trade at the LGS, and that is a cheap way to decide if you like 1911's or not.

This one was ridiculously inexpensive a couple of years ago, around $400 OTD. I've put hundreds of trouble-free rounds through it, and it's popular with my best shooting buddy, too. If I decided to buy a fancier one, he would probably fall all over himself to give me $300 cash for it. But I'm not. The fit and finish are decent, and it's already more accurate than I am.

If I wasn't sure about liking 1911's, this would have been a fun and inexpensive way to learn:

In Gunsite Gossip (I cannot remember which volume) Jeff Cooper says something to the effect of he looked at the 10mm as a means to extend a gunfight to longer ranges and that later, he found this requirement to be unnecessary.

-Stan

TTv2 said:

If .45 was so great, why is it so many police and the entire non Spec Ops of the US military have gone to 9mm?

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Probably for the same reasons they didn't switch to 10mm.

TTv2 said:

If .45 was so great, why is it so many police and the entire non Spec Ops of the US military have gone to 9mm?

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Money. Always follow the money.

When the 10mm was first introduced I was shooting IPSC at a local match. The competitor who purchased a new Colt 1911 in 10mm was running the course and when I saw the recoil, and distance the brass was ejected, I decided it would be a non competitive round. For combat games against time, the recoil recovery period took too much time.

I am sure in some situations a full power 10mm autopistol would be fun, but given a round of similar magnitude, I would rather have it in a revolver.

At least I would find my brass!

Slamfire said:

When the 10mm was first introduced I was shooting IPSC at a local match. The competitor who purchased a new Colt 1911 in 10mm was running the course and when I saw the recoil, and distance the brass was ejected, I decided it would be a non competitive round. For combat games against time, the recoil recovery period took too much time.

I am sure in some situations a full power 10mm autopistol would be fun, but given a round of similar magnitude, I would rather have it in a revolver.

At least I would find my brass!

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But a 10mm built on a STI 2011 frame/slide combo with a 3-port comp (like my open class 38 Supers) stays flatter than a super (more gas/higher velocity) and hits a lot harder than my gaming pea-shooters did. More than once I ran a stage against another shooter with it and won most of the time. Made a fair amount of lunch money doing this. And my brass dropped into a circle at about 4 o'clock and 6-8' from my feet. Helps when you tune the pistol for the load.

JTQ said:

Probably for the same reasons they didn't switch to 10mm.

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That's not exactly giving me a reason to say .45 is better than 10mm tho.

This was mentioned but I'll repeat it in a different way and add more. .45 ammo will be easy to find. 10mm will not be. The .45 can be converted to a .22lr for practice. The 10mm can be converted to a .40 (or even a .357sig) by changing the barrel. 40 will be less available in the future as PD's switch over to 9mm again. The .45 has a push or big push vs the 10mm has a heavier recoil. I think the 10mm is more popular now because it can be used for hunting. The .45 was developed for killing bad guys.

Jeff Cooper lectured me on the .45acp being the optimum man stopper in a gunfight as it was at the top of power that the average man could handle the fastest in a gunfight . It had proved itself in a hundred years of combat as such.
He later mentioned the 10mm as a possible extension of that power to a longer range , and mentioned that its use in a machine pistol might prove the ultimate in such use.
I seriously started to try to get more power out of my gen 3 Glock 21 after giving up such foolishness in 1911s . I had a Grizzly .45 Win Mag that ran well, but used extremely hard to get ammo and really split times in drills were way down from .45 acp and the minor calibers..I bought a KKM supported and threaded barrel for the Glock 21 to develop hot loads. I soon found out you DO need the heavier .45 Super brass for heavier loads ! Also needed a real comp on the barrel to slow the slide down to get those .45 250 grain bullets up to the real power levels that the 10mm operates at !
There lies the rub, when my son got a Glock 20 and with little changes Underwood 10mm 200 grain loads were safely and easily topping 600 ft pounds energy, holding it out further and penetrating deeper than the hottest .45 Super loads I was willing to pursue, the Glock 21 is now back to a warmly loaded antipersonnel tool rather than bear defense.
The 10mm secret is the heavier brass construction mostly and the longer case length and smaller diameter works better at higher pressures . It also relatively has less recoil that hot .45 loads , which should be no surprise. The Glock 20 with a .40 S&W conversion barrel is a real sweetheart as it offers fast split times with effective loads and cheaper more available ammo. I also have a Tangfolio convertible that is very nice that way.
The 10mm brass with it's thicker harder head is shared by the .357 Sig ! In my Sig 226 my latest experiments shows I can reliably get 1500 fps from the 125 grain Sierra sport bullets with about the same recoil as a full on .45 acp load . This .357 load should be doing almost 1200 fps at 100 yards and gives excellent reliable expansion . It would be the same as the best of the 4" revolver .357 Magnum antipersonnel loads that are almost legendary in stopping power.
So 10mm is a better game (bears and such) defensive or hunting load than the .45acp IMHO.
The .45acp is a great proven combat round .
The .357 Sig still has room to experiment with for defense or up to deer hunting at 100 yards in 4" or longer barrels , but IMHO I recommend you also have a .40 barrel you can swap into the pistol for ammo availibiity and the .40S&W is a well proven effective manstopper for those who can handle it , it is pretty much .45acp recoil after all .
That's my slant on the issue after more than 50 years .

Gordon said:

The Glock 20 with a .40 S&W conversion barrel is a real sweetheart as it offers fast split times with effective loads and cheaper more available ammo.

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I've read posts from some that had found 40S&W barrels for their G37/G38 Glocks (.45 GAP guns) and commented how well they shot with the heavier slide of the G37/G39 compared to the G22/G23. Note the Gen 5 .40 S&W guns have a thicker slide than the earlier Gen guns.

And the G 20 has a slab slide. The .40 S& w conversation barrel uses stock 20 recoil spring . Very soft shooting.

I have 1911s in both .45 and 10mm and like them both.

For just a fun target gun I do enjoy handloading for the 10mm, and my load of a 200 gr XTP over AA#9 @ around 1200 is an absolute tack driver, and one that I shoot more accurately at any range than anything else, including much more expensive guns than my humble RIA.

Even with a pretty warm load, I don’t find recoil extreme and most who shoot it don’t find it all that different than a .45 with 230 ball. I find .357 mag more objectionable in a DA revolver (probably while all I have now are SAA clones).

Considerations for the 10mm would be price mostly, and buying ammo is both more expensive and harder to find ammo worth the 10mm name. Much of the stuff I’ve seen might as well be .40 +P. Oh, and my RIA sends the fairly expensive 10mm brass into the next county, luckily someone at my range likes to dump a box of Glock 20 10mm and leave the brass ever so often so I’ve got a decent supply.

Either way, I think both options are fun and great and you can’t go wrong.

JR24 said:

Oh, and my RIA sends the fairly expensive 10mm brass into the next county, luckily someone at my range likes to dump a box of Glock 20 10mm and leave the brass ever so often so I’ve got a decent supply.

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Grab a couple Wolff recoil springs in heavier weights to help slow down the slide and reduce brass throw to a respectable distance. I went to a 22 lb spring in my G20 to handle the heavy 800X loads and keep my brass within 10 feet of me.

Lennyjoe said:

Grab a couple Wolff recoil springs in heavier weights to help slow down the slide and reduce brass throw to a respectable distance. I went to a 22 lb spring in my G20 to handle the heavy 800X loads and keep my brass within 10 feet of me.

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Yep, it’s on the list. Shoots reliably now and I don’t shoot it a to so I’m leaving it as is for now. I have a spot I like in the new pistol area of my range where a wall does a good job of mostly corralling my brass.

Tallball said:

45acp is completely adequate.

1911's are awesome. I own several 1911's and several pistols that are based on them.

But they're not for everyone.

If the OP hasn't shot 1911's much, I would not recommend a $1500 pistol. What if you don't like it?

There's another thread running right now about a $319 Turkish 1911. The owner likes it. It goes bang every time.

I would recommend purchasing an inexpensive 1911 and shooting it a bunch. Pay extra for decent sights. The tiny GI sights are hard to use. The Turkish and Filipino 1911's have good reputations for going bang every time and being reasonably accurate.

If the OP ponies up a very modest sum, like under $450 OTD, they can get a humble 1911 with a decent sights and trigger, and shoot the snot out of it. If they love it and decide they want to invest in an expensive one, great. If they shoot it some and decide they don't like it, NBD. Either way it will be worth $250 or more in trade at the LGS, and that is a cheap way to decide if you like 1911's or not.

This one was ridiculously inexpensive a couple of years ago, around $400 OTD. I've put hundreds of trouble-free rounds through it, and it's popular with my best shooting buddy, too. If I decided to buy a fancier one, he would probably fall all over himself to give me $300 cash for it. But I'm not. The fit and finish are decent, and it's already more accurate than I am.

If I wasn't sure about liking 1911's, this would have been a fun and inexpensive way to learn:

RIA 1911 45acp

• Tallball
• Jun 26, 2019

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this is a great advice regarding 1911s. i bought a metro arms american classic deluxe as my first 1911. $450. found the 1911 to be easier to shoot than my 9 mm xdm and was relatively accurate with it from the get go. learned to take it apart and put the idiot mark on it. traded it in for $350 to 375 a couple of years later and a few thousand rds through it and then bought my "nice" 1911s. no idiot marks on those.

Smart thinking, Roval. Metro Arms makes some very nice pistols.

Tallball said:

Smart thinking, Roval. Metro Arms makes some very nice pistols.

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accurate too

45 super or 450smc are comparable to 10mm not 45acp. For that you want an hk usp or mk23 pistol. But I'm not personally a big fan of the 1911 style which was good in its day but is more of a modern relic.

I've hunted with 10mm 1911s for years. Great round and viable for whitetail. Ive taken many. I have a few colt, a Kimber, and a nighthawk. I don't care for a 45 1911. The ones I own are for collecting

I see no reason to batter the gun with the 10mm round if your not hunting though. And I'd take the 45 for shooting indoors for sd over a 10. (I keep my 40 for sd and ccw)

10mm was all the rage around 20 years ago IIRC, and then it died out. Now it's back ... for what reason other than a product line extension by ammo companies and gun makers to boost sales, I have no clue. If you can't get the job done (whatever that job is) with .45, you're not gonna get it done with 10mm.
I'm sure someone can tell me that the 10mm has better ballistics, terminal velocity, yada yada yada ... but in the real world, it'll make no difference.
And any ammo shop will carry .45 as one of their standard rounds.
I stick with the basic calibers, not the "latest and greatest."
Just my two cents.

Cump said:

It seems 10mm ammo is also harder to find and more expensive, at least in my neck of the woods.

Even in good times, I think there were fewer options in most stores.

And 45 acp in a 1911 is one of life's great pleasures.

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Weird thing to me has been that there's more 10mm on the shelves than there is .357 Magnum or .38 Special.

Because people have to have it, because it's in vogue, so the profit margins are higher than .357 or .38. So that's what they are pumping out to the retailers.

Remember -- ammo and gun companies exist to make money. Period. (Not that there is anything wrong with that ... but 'dems the facts.)

I can't think of anything a 10mm will do that a .45 will not accomplish. If you're a ballistic data geek you might prefer the 10mm, but for real world applications a .45 will do anything a 10mm will do.

I bought a single stack 1911 10mm several years ago then added a 45acp slide, barrel and "stuff"... I had the best of both worlds for less than $800... My EDC now is a Springfield 10mm... 10mm has been my go to caliber since 1990... I've reloaded for it since the same time frame... I know tech stuff doesn't guarantee one shot stops but I really like having a high velocity round on hand (as pistols go)... And 16 rounds plus mags... There is a significant "potential" ftps difference with full power loads. And if you really want power in a 1911 platform... who could fault the 460 Roland conversion... Maybe I'm compensating though...lol

gunsrfun1 said:

10mm was all the rage around 20 years ago IIRC, and then it died out. Now it's back ... for what reason other than a product line extension by ammo companies and gun makers to boost sales, I have no clue. If you can't get the job done (whatever that job is) with .45, you're not gonna get it done with 10mm.
I'm sure someone can tell me that the 10mm has better ballistics, terminal velocity, yada yada yada ... but in the real world, it'll make no difference.
And any ammo shop will carry .45 as one of their standard rounds.
I stick with the basic calibers, not the "latest and greatest."
Just my two cents.

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That’s just wrong. 10 mm carries more energy and shoots flatter, so trajectory is easier and so hits are easier.

Because it carries more energy, its expansion will be better too. It’s a far superior round past 15 yards.

Last thing: wild animals fight for their life when hit, they don’t just fall down and give up, like humans tend to. They can run quite a ways after a lung shot, as they can run 40 mph.