Greenwood Park Mall Shooting

Well, whatever he learned and wherever he learned it, he learned something somewhere. My trainers have all said you're only as good as your worst day on the range.

9mmepiphany said:

It was a her, not a he, and she claimed to not have...I think she was just athletic, young, and didn't know that she shouldn't be able to do that

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Ah, youth...

Jeff White said:

Well I have real world experience using those skills and my grandkids kick my butt in first person shooter games. In my experience they are poor simulators for actual combat.

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But imagine you didn't have real world experience with those skills. Might your grandkids not then kick your butt in an airsoft game?

Jeff White said:

What do you think the odds are of this exact set of circumstances happening again?

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Get out of my head! I was just thinking about that. I would say "not very likely," but that church shooting in TX required a long-ish distance head shot. But yeah, rare.

That said, we don't train for things based on how likely they are to happen; we train based on the consequences of being unprepared if they do happen. Kids in schools don't do fire drills every month because schools are constantly burning down.

Jeff White said:

In my experience you get good at first person shooter games by learning where the software puts the enemy on multiple runs...

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Not unlike USPSA. I always shave my time by about 10% on the second run through.

Jeff White said:

In my experience you get good at first person shooter games by learning where the software puts the enemy on multiple runs and when playing one on one you get good by learning the software and how the weapons perform. I’ve found that in many of those games concealment is cover and other things that don’t jive with real life.

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Some of those things can certainly be true. They vary depending on the game, but your points certainly have validity. Games can be predicted with enough repetition, and physics often isn't modelled precisely.

That doesn't mean there's nothing that can be learned from such games. But then again, there are some who believe a skill can't be learned by reading it in a book and then putting it into practicing.

It's also much easier for someone to repeat an exercise properly after first time training if they have no bad habits from poor practice.

9mmepiphany said:

It takes much more time and many more rounds to correct bad habits than it does to learn to do it correctly in the first place.

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Training scars. I have some from competition shooting. They' reoccur quite regularly.

9mmepiphany said:

...home hobbyist using a Dremel tool on their guns

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Thanks for that image. Now I won't sleep for a week.

The horror. The horror.

9mmepiphany said:

I shouldn't complain. I've made a lot of money correcting techniques taught at popular shooting schools.

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There are right and wrong techniques for many different things. If you want to be good at more than one thing, it may not really be correcting techniques as much as knowing what one to employ.

There are obvious ones as far a safety is concerned but say “shoot house” technique will be different depending on if a squad enters or an individual. One doesn’t correct the other, rather is a supplement for different conditions.

gyp_c2 said:

It's also much easier for someone to repeat an exercise properly after first time training if they have no bad habits from poor practice.

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I wish I'd known that before learning the crouched claw-handed FBI stance I read in an old training manual.

9mmepiphany said:

That is what they taught when I entered LE. It was only later that I discovered that the Rangemaster was more a shotgunner (competitive) than a handgunner...and he'd just come back from a course taught at the FBI academy .

I reverted back to the Weaver that I had been using and used that until I was introduced to the Modified/Modern Isosceles and seen demonstrated how it actually worked better

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I'm honestly amazed that anyone here was ever taught that! It just seems so obviously wrong.

But you've got me curious now. Do you believe the Modern Isosceles is flat out superior to the Weaver for everyone? And if you teach it, have you seen consistent real world results to affirm it?

The 15 seconds often referred to is the time that elapsed between the murderer leaving the bathroom and the time Dicken's shots neutralized him.

See: https://nypost.com/2022/07/19/india...-returned-fire-just-15-seconds-into-shooting/

I think that the conventional narrative, as reflected in the "Dicken drill", understates the tasks that Dicken actually accomplished during those 15 seconds. During that time:

1) He recognized that the murderer posed a lethal threat,
2) He pushed his girlfriend toward concealment/cover,
3) He drew his Glock from concealment,
4) He put eight of ten rounds from "a distance" into his adversary, who at one point was retreating, and who had the capability of shooting back at him with a rifle,
5) He took ten shots while the murderer shot 24 rounds in his vicinity, and
6) He recognized when the murderer went down, determined that he no longer posed a threat, and decided to stop firing.


Playing video games or dumb luck do not drive results like this.

9mmepiphany said:

That is what they taught when I entered LE. It was only later that I discovered that the Rangemaster was more a shotgunner (competitive) than a handgunner...and he'd just come back from a course taught at the FBI academy .

I reverted back to the Weaver that I had been using and used that until I was introduced to the Modified/Modern Isosceles and seen demonstrated how it actually worked better

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At my first class, which was the first time I ever shot anything, they taught Weaver. For some reason it hurt my back (I have multi-level degenerative disk disease, L5-S1 is the worst, has ruptured several times over the past ~50 years), my body wanted to do what I later found out was Isosceles. That's how I've been shooting two-handed ever since. For one-handed the most natural for me is to stand sideways to the target.

God bless Eli Dicken, and his grandfather.

Sistema1927 said:

God bless Eli Dicken, and his grandfather.

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Amen.