mall shooting

Real serious weapons training needs to have surprises built in - and once a shooter is reasonably competent at target work - as much stress occasionally as can be managed while still allowing for safe training... Done properly the individuals running the course will get some real value out of it... but you need to be cautioned that it's very easy to over-do that sort of stuff.... I was in charge of training for a hundred man department thirty years ago when we were focusing on officer survival and some of my trainers would cheerfully turn it into a "boys night out" session if not paid attention to. This kind of training never involves live fire at all... Yeah it's great fun racing at speed down gravel roads then coming to a pre-arranged ambush spot to draw the officer(s) into hazardous situations - but it can also get out of hand. We were very serious about officer survival and in my era never lost a single officer on the street. Watching the videos of current real life encounters on the street I wonder if any department is actually teaching officer survival any more... Of course it's all about tactics - every time, with weapons only a component in real life encounters - in my opinion...

You're a day late and a dollar short. Guys in the competition world have been doing the "Dickens Drill" since about the day after it happened.

Since we don't know exactly what happened yet it seems...kind of like jumping the gun.

But drills are usually good even if not accurate to a storyline. Hopefully we'll eventually find out what actually happend.

I was at the range yesterday [ tuesday ] and I just had to see how well I could do "the shot".

I allowed only 28 yards and did it with a S & W M & P converted to 9mm

I kept all rounds on target [ reduced human simulated target that shows hits even from that distance.

I am VERY impressed at that removal of garbage.

And I dare say that gentleman was not under the stress many imagined.

He did not have time to think it out and "stress".

He saw the threat and addressed it ASAP.

Great shot,real hero,and I would be happy to buy him some ammunition and a steak dinner too.

scaatylobo said:

He did not have time to think it out and "stress".

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Yes, I agree. One of the greatest afflictions of our modern age is overthinking things, trying to control the outcome of all situations and playing the what if game. It took me many years of studying Zen Buddhism to get back to the state of consciousness I had at about 10 years of age. But I may be a little slow.
Bravo to that young man.

jak67429 said:

After listening to a few guys at a local steel challenge match state they could easily have made the shots the the guy in the mall did…

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What shots did he make exactly? The details are sparse, likely overshadowed by the selfless act ending the event.

All I have found is that he made 8 of 10 hits (at some distance) after the shooter fired 24 rounds in 15 seconds.

No information about the condition of the shooters gun, empty, jammed or otherwise. That one detail would be huge. You also didn’t need the guy randomly shooting targets, if that were the case.

Actually pretty surprised there has been absolutely zero video I have been able to find. Would be shocked if there were less than a half dozen cameras that caught the action. Heck, they even have license plate readers tracking every vehicle that comes there. Because armed robberies were already a problem. https://dailyjournal.net/2022/02/11...-get-security-upgrades-after-armed-robberies/

Not taking a thing away from the hero, as had he not stepped in, the evidence shows fire would have likely continued as the dead murderer did have more ammunition and firearms he brought.

I am glad they didn’t go after the hero because he was carrying in a “no firearms” location.

jmorris said:

What shots did he make exactly?
...
All I have found is that he made 8 of 10 hits (at some distance) after the shooter fired 24 rounds in 15 seconds.

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40 yards (possibly out to 50). He stopped the shooter in ~15 seconds from when the shooter started firing.
https://www.usacarry.com/40-yards-elisjsha-dicken-landed-shots-mall-shooter/

Hence, the Dicken Drill...
https://www.tactical-life.com/videos/the-elisjsha-dicken-drill/

Double Naught Spy said:

40 yards (possibly out to 50). He stopped the shooter in ~15 seconds from when the shooter started firing.
https://www.usacarry.com/40-yards-elisjsha-dicken-landed-shots-mall-shooter/

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That’s what I find odd. The mall shooter story contains a link to video of a Texas church shooting, not the incident the story is about…

jmorris said:

That’s what I find odd. The mall shooter story contains a link to video of a Texas church shooting, not the incident the story is about…

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That is where actually reading the article would pay off. It references the Texas shooting, mentioning the difficulty of shooting just 12-15 yards and provided the video for the example. It isn't claiming it is from the mall. I don't believe the mall's shooting video has been released to the public yet.

I’d like to know why/how the shooter stood still/vertical long enough to be hit with 8 of 10 shots. Seems implausible but good for the shooter. Amazing shooting under stress.

Jeff White said:

It's pretty much useless to try to draw any conclusions from the limited information that's publicly available.

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Especially these days, it seems like no one can report the simple truth anymore. It has to ooze out over time for some reason.

I'm inclined to agree with your friends.
A paintball gun at 30 yards isn't going to be accurate because it's a paintball gun at 30 yards. And I'm pretty sure I'd do better shooting @ 60BPM with tunnel vision than I would after jogging my spherical physique around a parking lot.
Not saying it wasn't an impressive performance, regardless of what the actual distance was. But I don't really get the near-idolization that seems to be surrounding the guy.
If a non-competitive, casual shooter (assuming this accurately describes the good samaritan) can make those shots, someone who actually trains & competes has at least as good a chance of doing so. At least.

azrocks said:

But I don't really get the near-idolization that seems to be surrounding the guy.

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That comes with being a Hero. It’s not just about being able to do it, rather be at the right place, at the right time and save a boat load of lives.

Understood & agreed.
Don't get me wrong. I do consider him a hero. He's absolutely worthy of praise. I just feel the praise-worthy part to be more about the choices he made rather than his actual physical performance.

One without the other is useless. Best intentions alone can’t make a hero.

If they did we would all deserve a pat on the back.

azrocks said:

If a non-competitive, casual shooter (assuming this accurately describes the good samaritan) can make those shots, someone who actually trains & competes has at least as good a chance of doing so. At least.

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I used to shoot the weekly steel match at the local club down in Dallas. There were definitely a lot of regular shooters there and many were quite good. There were some regular competitors that weren't apt to hit 50% on a full size silhouette at 20 yards...and it didn't bother them one iota. In their view, they would never be shooting that far (lots of reasons for this, even if others do shoot that far at times).

Understand, that there are some 'casual shooters' that may have skills even more developed shooters don't have. For some people, certain mechanical tasks come easy. For others, it takes lots of hard work. You may be a natural born artist or one who became accomplished after an extensive art education and training.

Every situation is going to be different. You or I may have the ability to hit a slow moving target at 40 yards, but then again have less ability to hit a quick moving target at 5 or even 2 yards.

So Dicken was a "casual shooter." Maybe his idea of casual shooting was plinking at playing cards at 50 yards? Maybe he was pretty good at it.

In other words, there are a lot of variables at play when a person enters into a shooting situation as a shooter in terms of how well they will be able to perform.

azrocks said:

But I don't really get the near-idolization that seems to be surrounding the guy.

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Good question. Well, let's see, He did virtually everything right in regard to saving others. He moved his GF to safety. He responded VERY fast (it was all over in 15 seconds). He fired at distance while making use of available resources (quick thinking). He fired accurately (80% hit rate, far above typical professional police percentages, right?). He did not hit any other bystanders despite being in a well occupied area (2012 New York Police wish they could say the same thing after wounding several, turning a single murder into a mass shooting). He did what NOBODY else did in a mall full of people. He saved a lot of lives and has managed to remain largely under the radar, low key, mild mannered. He is not a huge braggart. He didn't appear to be some sort of militia gun nut sort of person, and yet he is the hero every wannabe gunslinger wants to be. Moreover, he accomplished what he accomplished not because he was in a seedy part of time where good people of proper insight know to roll up their windows and lock their doors as they drive by on the highway at 70 miles an hour. Nope. He did what he did in the middle of a popular, family oriented shopping mall, saving men, women, teens, children, and babies from a dreaded lone wolf gunman (some say 'the very worst kind' because of their lack of predictability) armed with a dreaded black rifle and lots of mags of ammo. He was the ballistic underdog, daring to take a pistol to a rifle fight and was VICTORIOUS. Everything was done so well that there has been no real backlash towards him personally from the typical venues. He did so well his story has been carried on all the major networks and he has been recognized by the police as an exceptional hero who stopped a mass shooter (also carried on many major networks). And, he is liked by many for being a bit of a bad boy, carrying a concealed firearm in a mall where they don't want them (but wasn't actually illegal, so not a lawbreaker). AND, to top it all off, this guy is still wet behind the ears. This wasn't some curmudgeon CCW dude that has been carrying for the last 30 years who has a range in his backyard and does drills 3 days a week, head on a swivel, condition orange, TOTAL situational awareness, high speed low drag and just waiting for a chance to respond. Nope, this was a mild mannered young dude, the DUDE that we all thought would save the world with CCW back when we were all really naive and thought CCW was going to change crime and violence in America and make it a beautiful place. He is the proverbial sleeper pistolero expert that no bad guy would ever expect and didn't. He doesn't look like much of anything special on the outside, just a typical young man out on the town with his lady, and not some beefy gym dude and his lady, but just a guy. Then, when things got real and the panic started, but before anybody could start the Bat Signal or people could do much in the way of comprehending the situation and figuring out what they were doing to do to survive, he had ended it. I would bet most people were still in the same place or within 20 yards between when the shooting started and ended because most didn't have idea what they were going to do, but he did.

So why the near idolization? That is puzzler.

I guess I come from a time and place where making the same types of decisions and acting immediately to combat evil were more common than they are today. Again, I'm not taking anything away from the guy. I commend him for all the reasons you mention. No argument from me whatsoever. But in my world, when someone starts shooting up a mall you're in, and you have a gun on your hip, fleeing out the back door or grabbing your phone to become a YouTube star aren't viable options. He did what he had to do, simple as that, and if he hadn't done it he likely would have been counted among the dead with a bullet in his back. I'd rather the lesson others learn from his example is that they can and should respond similarly in the event they find themselves in similar circumstances. Not that he did something nobody but him could have pulled off. We already have enough of that thinking going on in this country... People waiting around for someone else to come save the day instead of doing what obviously needs to be done right then and there. I don't know him, but if your romanticized summary of his character is accurate, I wouldn't be surprised if this humble hero agreed.

I'm not sure that I could have lived with myself if I had found myself in a situation like that and hadn't at least tried to stop that shooter.
The only opinion that I really care about is my own... .

azrocks said:

Again, I'm not taking anything away from the guy. I commend him for all the reasons you mention. No argument from me whatsoever. But in my world, when someone starts shooting up a mall you're in, and you have a gun on your hip, fleeing out the back door or grabbing your phone to become a YouTube star aren't viable options. He did what he had to do, simple as that, and if he hadn't done it he likely would have been counted among the dead with a bullet in his back.

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"What he had to do, plain and simple" was something virtually nobody else in his position has done, at least not in the last 20 years in the US. This is the kind of monumental CCW response.

So, LOL, you can't take anything away from the guy. Do you know of any other instances where a mass shooter was better handled by an average Joe? By average Joe, I don't mean off duty cops, retired cops, gun range owners, firearms instructors, Navy Seals, or security guards, but just some dude with a CCW? I don't mean guys that stop the shooter after the shooting is over. How many can you list that did such a good job? This isn't exactly rhetorical. Think about it. How many mass shootings have been stopped by truly average people and stopped so well?

Your world view is great, but as it turns out, lots of people have your world view but never manage to be at the heart of mass shootings and manage to react so quickly and so decisively with so much skill. It all sounds pretty easy. The responder just needs to be highly decisive, skilled, prepared, and a good bit lucky to be in the wrong place and the wrong time for something terrible to start happening.

Let's backtrack a bit. How many mass shootings have you been in or at in your life? I have been in zero. I have known plenty of people who have been in muggings, store robberies, a couple that have been in home invasions, but I can't think of a single person that I know person who was in a mass shooting. Strangely, or not, very few people on this forum have been in mass shootings as original players, though some LEOs here may have responded to mass shootings.

This is an Anthony Swofford sort of problem. He was a first Gulf War sniper. He had all the training and capabilities, but was virtually never in a position to use what he had learned and even when he was, it wasn't pulling the trigger.

So there is nothing to take away from our Hero. He was the one person who was there in a crisis, in the kill zone, who not only knew what to do, but knew how to do it and did it exceptionally well. He didn't die or get hurt and he didn't kill or injure the wrong people. He won Game of Thrones without even knowing he was going to be a player or what the rules were for the day. Not many people can say that.

Dicken? 10 shots, 8 hits, 40 yards, <15 seconds on a hostile target with a pistol.

You want to talk about people doing what they had to do in a mass shooting? We can look to Luby's and the multiple individuals who did what they had to do and attempted to openly charge the gunman and were summarily gunned down in the process. We can look to all the others who didn't attempt it. It isn't enough to do what you have to do, but to be able to do it well, decisively, and in a timely manner.

Even better, he didn't get shot by the cops afterwards, like Johnny Hurley.