Bonded vs Cup-and-Core for deer?

That last setence in WisBorn's post says it all. For our western deer and antelope, I used Hornady Interlock FB bullets. For elk, Nosler Partition's.
Ammo is indeed the least expensive part of the hunt.

mcb said:

Sorry I missed the joke. As a "paid-optimist", an R&D engineer by profession, that saying has always bothered me.

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I remember at Hughes El Segundo, the design engineers were prevented access to the production lines. If those guys got access to the hardware, they would be back at their drafting boards making "improvements". Improvements need to be tested, to find out if they are improvements. Another saying is "the cure was found to be worse than the disease". And improvements always caused massive production disruption, tooling and supplier costs.

The R&D types think all they need to do, to move a pyramid, is pick up the cap stone, move it ten feet, and the rest of the pyramid will sprout feet, and walk under the cap stone.

The Program Manager of the 9mm pistol made sure that manufacturer's submitted completed models that would not be fired during the design verification tests. That way, the Government could be certain the production models that won the competition, were the exact configuration to the ones that passed all that expensive testing. No innovation wanted.

Slamfire said:

I remember at Hughes El Segundo, the design engineers were prevented access to the production lines. If those guys got access to the hardware, they would be back at their drafting boards making "improvements". Improvements need to be tested, to find out if they are improvements. Another saying is "the cure was found to be worse than the disease". And improvements always caused massive production disruption, tooling and supplier costs.

The R&D types think all they need to do, to move a pyramid, is pick up the cap stone, move it ten feet, and the rest of the pyramid will sprout feet, and walk under the cap stone.

The Program Manager of the 9mm pistol made sure that manufacturer's submitted completed models that would not be fired during the design verification tests. That way, the Government could be certain the production models that won the competition, were the exact configuration to the ones that passed all that expensive testing. No innovation wanted.

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I believe this post is best summed up with the programmers managers "favorite" saying, "it's time to shoot the engineer, and ship the product."

I've shot a lot of deer. A LOT OF DEER with cup and cores from .28 to .30 caliber. At 2500-2800 fps, I find the 150 grain Speer Hot Core to be about perfect, with a strong second to the Hornady Interlock. The Win PP was very good also, but I never got quite the accuracy out of those. Think of these as cup and core + some limited controlled expansion features. I've never used a bonded bullet, although I did shoot a deer with a Nosler Partition from my .280 Rem once to test a load. When I get into higher velocities/lighter for caliber bullets in my .280, I do prefer some enhanced controlled expansion features. I favor either the 140 NP or the 145 Speer GS here. Haven't yet taken a deer with that NP, but have taken a lot with the GS.

In the Wife's .308, my .300 Savages and 30-06 (reduced to 2600 fps) I will continue to shoot the Speer 150 Hot core, kill deer and be happy!

mcb said:

I believe this post is best summed up with the programmers managers "favorite" saying, "it's time to shoot the engineer, and ship the product."

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Being a perfectionist myself, it is difficult to accept "good enough"

Ford used to be a quality manufacturer, now they are a Recall King. Just this morning was reading this article on Ford’s decline, and one of the many problems is, too many changes, too late

At Ford, Quality Is Now Problem 1
2022 08-06 Wall Street Journal

One of the challenges he identified at Ford was that it tried to make too many last-minute design and engineering changes ahead of a new-vehicle launch, increasing the risk of problems down the line.

Wabi Sabi has concepts worth considering

· Nothing lasts
· nothing is finished,
· nothing is perfect

At some level of firearm endurance, bullet expansion, function or accuracy, you will hit the limit. And that is it.

I have shot dozens of deer with all kinds of cartridges, in Minnesota where big deer come from. The main thing is a high velocity centerfire that expands quickly but penetrates well and holds together. Most well designed deer bullets do that pretty well regardless of caliber. When I first started deer hunting I thought you needed a 30-06. You don't. I also found out that some bullets don't expand and pass through with minimal damage, the deer died but it was a difficult track before I found it shot end to end. Turned out I accidently used an Elk load instead of deer bullets in my 7 MM. No, shotgun slugs are not better, the opposite usually. Cup and core bullets have worked fine for me. I have also used premium bonded bullets but I have never had a deer tell me they refused to die since I used the wrong bullet.
Even 300 lbs. deer aren't all that big. I have killed them just as dead and just as quick with a soft point 55 gr .223 as any other bullet I have used. The most important thing is always place the bullet where it belongs. The heart.

d2wing said:

No, shotgun slugs are not better, the opposite usually.

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I am surprised with this statement. I shot a deer close up with a 12 Brenneke slug.



and it made a big hole in, and big hole out. My shot caught the tip of the lung, back, as the deer was quartering from me. It ran, but the blood trail was incredible, the deer was blowing blood out like a paint gun. Blood on trees, blood on ground, and finally, the deer collapsed and died. At the check in station, lots of big holes in deer, as only slugs were allowed in the reserve. So, what happened in your experience?

You have one sample. As you stated the slug passed through. I have had one shot drt kills on deer with slugs but typically the slug passed through doing little damage and are often hard to track. Also shot placement is not precise. And you have to be pretty close. I have had the best results using Winchester sabot slugs. Results are much more reliable with a high velocity rifle with expanding bullets.
I live in a shotgun zone but I travel for hours to hunt with a rifle like most people. Close to where I live the limit is five deer. Where I hunt it's one deer but I can use a rifle.
I have shot dozens of deer with all kinds of weapons. I think I know what works best. Shotguns are definitely not it by a long shot, pardon the pun.

d2wing said:

You have one sample. As you stated the slug passed through. I have had one shot drt kills on deer with slugs but typically the slug passed through doing little damage and are often hard to track. Also shot placement is not precise. And you have to be pretty close. I have had the best results using Winchester sabot slugs. Results are much more reliable with a high velocity rifle with expanding bullets.
I live in a shotgun zone but I travel for hours to hunt with a rifle like most people. Close to where I live the limit is five deer. Where I hunt it's one deer but I can use a rifle.
I have shot dozens of deer with all kinds of weapons. I think I know what works best. Shotguns are definitely not it by a long shot, pardon the pun.

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I was close, I could have taken the deer with a spear like a cave man! Well, a shotgun was what I had to use in the reserve I was in. Thanks for your experience.

Slamfire said:

I was close, I could have taken the deer with a spear like a cave man! Well, a shotgun was what I had to use in the reserve I was in. Thanks for your experience.

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Shotguns beat the heck out of spears I guess. I hunted with Shotguns several seasons. Lots better than not hunting.

For white tail? It really doesn't matter. They're very thin skinned animals. Lot of people around where I hunt seem to act like the deer wear bulletproof vests or something. Remember people successfully kill these things with pointy sticks going at 350 ft per second.

For the .308 I use hand loaded 165 grn Norma Oryx . I have 5 recovered Oryx, 4 from moose and 1 from a fallow buck, in my little office that all have 90% + weight retention. When I was hunting back in the UK and shooting a lot of deer that all went to a game dealer I used Nosler 165grn ballistic tip but then meat damage and lead contamination wasn't my problem.
I've now started loading mono metal bullets for the .308 and the double rifle and so far the results seem positive.

I shoot mostly tipped match bullets these days, I actually have a whole pile of 168TMKs, and some 180 Accubond seconds I was gonna use in.....something....Ive seen very little difference in performance on most of the stuff Ive shot.
My motto is Run em heavy, run em soft. Run em light, run em hard.

Im currently playing with 120 TTSXs, and 120 ballistic tips in my 7-08, both at about the same speed.....well see how much difference there is between them on our sub-100lb sheep and goats, might take that rifle next time I'm home....it would be nice to carry something lighter and smaller than what i usually take.

Cheap and plentiful have always done the job for me the last 30+ years. I have a stash of Core Lokt ammo and bullets that will last my lifetime. Find what your rifle likes and just go with it!

Go bonded, predictable performance, track true, and often result in less meat loss.

Didn't read every single post so I might be repeating someone.
If the bullets cost the same and they both kill deer dead.
Go with what's the most accurate from your rifle.

Compared to the total cost of deer hunting .... bullets are a drop in a big bucket ...

H&Hhunter said:

On deer it really doesn’t matter, they are thin skinned lightly built animals.

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That's the messeage I got from lots of gun writers over the years and the advice I got from some guys with lots of experience. I go with the one that shows better accuracy in my particular rifle. Shot placement is still very important so lean toward accuracy.