Bwana John
Member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2004
- Messages
- 2,960
A higher percentage of polymer seems to be the trend for firearms.
Ammunition seems to be going that way also.
Ammunition seems to be going that way also.
So yes, I agree a M700 extractor will be a problem to replace, and they do fail. I suspect that there are even less maintainable designs on the market.
At the risk of beating this point to death, I did specify Remington's riveted extractor. I don't know whether their newer rivetless M700 extractor design is an improvement or step backward, but it is user-replaceable.
I don't even change my own motor oil anymore, so I get your point. We each pick our own battles when it comes to maintenance issues.
Allow me to share a story about factory service: three years ago the transfer bar on my new (sub-100 round) Taurus .22 revolver sheared off its connecting pin. It is at most a $5 part that should never have broken in the first place. And Taurus won't sell you a new one -- they require factory installation. Their 'lifetime warranty' requires an up-front service fee -- $25 or $35, I forget. That fee, plus FedEx shipping to and from Georgia. I found a way to fix it myself and then sold the thing with full disclosure to the new owner. I'd call this a different kind of less maintainable gun, by policy rather than design.
Ruger at least will send a shipping label.
I love the utility of a modern Savage Axis (cheap and very accurate) but it just feels like something that will probably be in a landfill after a while when something breaks.
I know exactly what you mean. I recently bought a couple of Savage Axis II .300 Blackout rifles with threaded barrels in the cheap plastic stocks they come in with the intention of putting them in Oryx or XRS or similar chassis. Last time I went shooting with my Dad he wanted to shoot one as is so we put a scope on it and a brake and shot a few groups.I love the utility of a modern Savage Axis (cheap and very accurate) but it just feels like something that will probably be in a landfill after a while when something breaks.
I don't know how anyone could be satisfied with these flimsy stocks. I think the entire area around the trigger and magazine is an insert and I could feel it flex every time I shot it.
I'm having a hard time thinking about how they could use cheaper materials. Plastic is pretty cheap as it is and I doubt gun grade steel is all that expensive, either.Cheaper materials
With how efficient CNC machines seem to be, I think the only way forward would possibly be 3D printed steel receivers, bolts, and barrels. Injection molding of plastic parts appears to be pretty efficient to me. I'm not in an industry that does that sort of thing, though.Cheaper tooling/manufacturing processes
As someone has already mentioned, offshoring will likely be the future of firearm manufacturing. Considering you can buy foreign made shotguns for little more than a hundred bucks, I can see how alluring it'll be for manufacturers to drag up and move operations elsewhere.Cheaper labor
Sintered metal / powdered metallurgy is the future for efficient mass production of firearms and components, in my opinion. Very impressive uniformity of alloys can be achieved, surpassing that of casting or forging. As powder metallurgy improves, I think it will eventually become equal to or possibly exceed the strength and durability of even drop forged parts.With how efficient CNC machines seem to be, I think the only way forward would possibly be 3D printed steel receivers, bolts, and barrels.
Who says that any cost cutting would go directly back to the consumer rather than the company coffers.
A Savage Axis 2 with a. Weaver scope can be purchased new for around $460.
With current wages that’s less than 1 weeks pay.
This is probably for another thread, but plenty of eyeballs have been lost when SAKO extractors blew out of modified M700's. And when I look at the M16 extractor conversion, I don't see a retention system for them. These extractors line up exactly with the receiver bolt opening, and there is nothing inside to keep the extractor from lifting off. And, breeching the bolt ring with an external extractor provides a path for gas release. And that has blown M700's
Obviously an extreme kaboom, but the extractor was blown off
View attachment 1094782
This is how a complete bolt face ring protects the shooter
View attachment 1094783
Somewhere in the 1970’s consumer products became un maintainable. I remember the Chevy Monza V6 of the era, we all laughed because the engine mounts had to loosened, the engine raised, to change spark plugs.
https://community.cartalk.com/t/197...engine-removal-to-replace-spark-plugs/72015/3
That Monza was the future. A bud of mine, his 1999 Ford Explorer, several of the spark plugs were inaccessible unless you had a lift, and a special spark plug wrench.
Back in the 60's and 70's there were a lot of wrench tuners, used to see them in the drive way working on their pickups and cars. Now, hardly ever see anyone working on their car. Changing spark plugs is often a dealership only maintenance procedure. Draining the coolant requires a dealership vacuum. There used to be drain petcocks on the radiator, not any more. (if you can access the lower radiator hose and pull it off, you can drain the coolant.)
When the weather cools, I am going to replace a heater core on a vehicle. It may take me several days. The seats, the dash, all have to be removed to gain access to the heater core. And the A/C has to be evacuated. The dealership wants $1200 to do the job, because it takes them a lot of time to get in there.
Have you had an appliance fail, such as a coffee maker, a dish washer, a washing machine? A common fault that occurs around 5 years (or less) is a capacitor failure on a computer board. You cannot replace the computer boards on coffee makers. Computer boards, if they are available, are at least 50% of the cost of a new dish washer or washing machine. Tried to replace the battery on your cell phone? Cell phones are designed to be disposed when the battery die, which is about three years.
And, people today don’t fix stuff anyway. Something breaks, they go buy a new one.
I have never done a detail parts strip of my M92 Beretta. If something breaks inside that thing, it looks to be a horrible experience taking all the parts out.
My Ruger MKII was a horrible experience. I installed a Volquartsen trigger and sear. My advice, lay a white bedsheet on the floor, sit on it, and that way, when the springs for the safety and trigger mechanism go flying, you can find them.
God bless You Tube!
Volquartsen Accurizing Kit Install
So yes, I agree a M700 extractor will be a problem to replace, and they do fail. I suspect that there are even less maintainable designs on the market.
I always preferred value over the absolute lowest price and I’m at a point in my life where I don’t have to buy the absolute cheapest rifle on the market.Economic theory. Unless there is illegal price-fixing collusion, competition to get the same will always drive a manufacturer's margins lower because if you're not willing to drop your price, someone else will happily accept lower margins in exchange for boosted sales (because the margin on a sale that never occurs is always 0%).
All well and good but people always want to pay less. If a comparably functional package can be built and sold for $125 instead of the stated $460 I'm sure plenty of people would be interested.
Also a weeks pay isn't really any indicator of affordability. "It's not how much money you make, it's how much money you keep.". If someone is making $500 per week but it's taking $480 per week to cover their expenses, then that $460 purchase will take a lot longer to save for - particularly when you factor in that most people have other interests to also fund.
Why not pay a little more for a Savage 12FV which is usually $429 at Cabelas and Bass Pro.I’ll go on the record as saying I miss it when guns were made of blued steel and wood.
I have an early ‘90s Taurus PT99 that just looks and feels amazing compared to a US-made Beretta 92FS from a few years ago. I know it’s a pistol but it just illustrates the question well in my opinion.
I love the utility of a modern Savage Axis (cheap and very accurate) but it just feels like something that will probably be in a landfill after a while when something breaks.
On man, I had a 75 Buick Skyhawk, V6. I sold it at a year old. But I have have had many cars since that the owner could not change spark plugs on normally. On my 63 chevy 6 cylinder pick up I could sit on the fender and do anything.
I hope you’ve changed at least three sets of spark plugs in that time.Sometimes when people are talking about how hard new cars are to maintain, we loose sight of the fact that new cars just don’t really require maintenance to begin with. My suburban has 175,000 miles and has only received oil changes, 1 wheel bearing, and a set of front brakes in that time. That’s amazing compared to the cars I grew up with. I’m certain most new cars today will go to the recycler with their original spark plugs and transmission fluid. It’s hard to even find a shop that can rebuild a engine or trans anymore.
Sometimes when people are talking about how hard new cars are to maintain, we loose sight of the fact that new cars just don’t really require maintenance to begin with. My suburban has 175,000 miles and has only received oil changes, 1 wheel bearing, and a set of front brakes in that time. That’s amazing compared to the cars I grew up with. I’m certain most new cars today will go to the recycler with their original spark plugs and transmission fluid. It’s hard to even find a shop that can rebuild a engine or trans anymore.
I hope you’ve changed at least three sets of spark plugs in that time.
LOL.I'll let you know when I change the first one.
LOL.
I changed the plugs in my 2008 F-250 at 70,000 miles and I saw close to a 1MPG increase.
On a truck that does 10.2mpg that’s a 10% increase.
They paid for themselves in almost no time.