How quickly things can take a bad turn and escalate

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It could have been worse. You exercised caution as needed and didn't drawn into a bigger problem.

My son was at a local establishment when someone was going to blind side the bouncer. Saw it coming and clotheslined the attacker. Then the bouncer came for my son. He put his hands behind his head and did passive. But others quickly stated that he saved you to the bouncer. He then high tailed it out of there. No need to get deeper into it.

Sounds like a fun bar. I will be in the panhandle first week of December for work. Might have to find the place. Not that I look for trouble. It sounds (with the exception of the trouble) my kind of place.
 
Having been in a few bar room brawls in my military days things have surely changed and not for the good. We'd fight, but nobody was really interested in killing anyone. Not really the case anymore. Hindsight is always 20/20 but overall I don't see anything more you could have done. Maybe take him down another peg in the first encounter, but that can be a hard one if that person gets injured more seriously. Overall it was your instincts that took over when things first started. Don't start overthinking it and try to change a response that your body knows instinctively. Next time you may hesitate if you do that, which can be detrimental to your health.

Local bar in my town had a reputation of having rowdy patrons and the local LEs got tired of it. They had on cop car sit at the entrance to the parking lot every Thursday, Friday and Saturday for a month. Patrons all left to go elsewhere and the bar eventually had to close. Their own fault really. If they had kept a lid on it they'd still be open.
 
Rockrivr1 said:
Maybe take him down another peg in the first encounter, but that can be a hard one if that person gets injured more seriously.
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As I said, I had many more options when it got physical, and while he was "willing" to continue the contest, he was far from capable. My training and experience not only makes it a little easier to defend, me being slightly "inoculated" in physical confrontation due to constant training makes it "normal" to engage in "martial fisticuffs" while "managing" the problem- similar to in the dojo. I don't spar the same with a person with little or no experience as I would with someone who has been training for the same time as me. I was trying to avoid putting him in a condition where he would not be able to walk away under his own power, if possible- then the next problem arose and that problem was worked out by 2 other people (1 who was in fact the property owner). In my opinion, those 2 fellows did just fine, all things considered- that drunk was probably better off squaring up with those guys with that bat than with me. My patience only goes so far.
 
edwardware said:
If the target patrons for your business will go elsewhere because there's a cruiser in the parking lot. . . I'm probably ok with you going out of business. I can't see that as anything but a very bad sign.
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Its different everywhere. I live in "small town Fl", the establishment is along a 2 lane highway in between my small town and another small town. There's not that many businesses at all in the area. As I said before, stupid can strike anywhere at any time. When a Church's chicken opened when I was still in Fayetteville, NC they had more incidents there than some of the bars with a "rough rep" in that town. Rare was the time I didn't see a cop car in their parking lot in the evening. One of the local police officers who would frequent my job said that the biggest problem with that Church's is that it was a real big hit when it came to town (I would never eat it myself, I think its disgusting) but since there was only 1, different groups of people had to share the same Church's, and sometimes these groups didn't like each other, resulting in shenanigans of all types on the premises.
 
Kleanbore said:
For me, avoidance always comes first, followed by more avoidance.
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That is a workable strategy. I don't see how I could have feasibly used it, apart from staying home. All the time- which is sort of the core of this whole thread. Even places of worship have been violently targeted in recent years, resulting in clergy and worshippers being forced to enact security protocols to mitigate such violence. A popular chain restaurant in Waco (where I have been known to enjoy a meal and a televised sports event from time to time at their location in Pensacola) was the sight of a very violent clash in 2015 at "high noon" (actually 12:24- so lunch time for most people), where LE intervened- that resulted in 9 people dead, 18 injuries, and a mass arrest of 177 customers. BTW, the end result was no convictions and 130 lawsuits pending. So the question is- how far is a person expected to go with the "avoidance" strategy?
 
FL-NC said:
Well, it re-enforced the FACT that every situation is different from every other, at least in a few small ways. I truly believe I was in a situation where I was forced to physically act, and I did it in the hopes that this minimal "posturing" would de-escalate. I 100% could have targeted other areas of his poorly maintained intoxicated body in more aggressive ways, because I just don't believe he would have had a snowflake's chance of winning that, but I was trying to avoid such an excessive display- besides then he would have been 300 pounds of stupid on the floor, which no one wants to see, and I'm sure as heck not going to be able to remove without a tow strap and a truck, or calling the authorities. Of course, the next order effect of me NOT wrecking him (and probably ending up explaining myself to the authorities, a judge, etc.) was him waiting in a poorly planned ambush with that bat, which had to be addressed later. So in that aspect, it was a catch 22 (I think that's the right use of the term) and it all "buffed out".
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Interesting points.

Here's a question (or two) for you:

You stated "I truly believe I was in a situation where I was forced to physically act..."

OK, let's back that up a bit. Could you have done something BEFORE then which might have changed the outcome?

I ask this because once upon a time a few years ago I got in a vehicular accident and @Jeff White asked me "What were you thinking about just before the accident happened?" He didn't ask what happened or all the obvious things most people think to ask.

It kinda set me back on my heels a bit, because it made me consider WHY I missed seeing the other vehicle before it was too late to avoid the accident. It changed my perspective from "I didn't see the other vehicle" to "Why DIDN'T I see the other vehicle that was so obviously there?"


Obviously I wasn't there when this happened with you, and if I were I likely wouldn't have been cued in on everything like you were from start to finish. So ME making suggestions how YOU could could have handled this differently would not be as productive as you looking looking at everything and doing a deep self-critique. I would rather limit myself to asking questions that encourage this.


It's been said that the best fight is the one you don't have to fight. Is there a point where you could have said "Hmmm...this drunk guy might be a problem just based on her worries. Maybe we could avoid this by (fill in the blank)."
 
Very good points, chief. Prior to any interaction I had with the drunk, I was aware of his presence but didn't consider him a threat at that time. When the owner asked me to hang out with her and told me why, I agreed to do so because she is my friend and because I actually had something to discuss with her. I was doing that while being aware of the drunk's presence in my peripheral vision and actions (multi tasking), but taking no further action at that time (unneeded), in the hopes that he would see us engaged in close conversation (as friends) and would take the hint or show some common courtesy and just stay away, potentially avoiding a fight, and hopefully any further interaction at all. Of course, this didn't happen, and I politely asked him to step away once he rudely inserted himself in my (our) physical space and interrupting our interaction, without raising my voice, acting menacingly, "or else" threats, or anything like that. In my estimation, I had done nothing wrong or illegal, and even showed some basic courtesy, and in a business where I was allowed to be, in a space I was "wanted". I think I may have even called him "sir". When he became aggressive, and communicated a desire to do me harm, I acted using a very minimal amount of force. By my count, that is 2 passive and polite attempts to gracefully prevent physical interaction, followed by a minimal physical action, to defend myself and minimize a rapidly deteriorating situation.
 
I don't know if I'm playing devils advocate or just putting a weird twist on things, but I am curious about the liability involved with letting him leave.

I train horses and when you host a show you have certain responsibilities in the event of an accident. State law says all present are willing participants and that the organizer is not liable, but at the same time if someone ends up with a possible head injury and you let them leave alone without being checked by an EMT or accompanied by someone, there is a possibility of getting in trouble for negligence.

The bar let the guy get intoxicated to the point of the altercation, he received an injury that very likely resulted in a concussion, and was then allowed to drive. Seems like an ambulance chaser's wet dream to me. I would be very worried if I owned the bar.

As for you personally I can't say that you did anything wrong, but you are now involved in what could end up being an ugly civil suit.

I am not a trained fighter. I am a larger than average guy that makes a living breaking colts, baling hay, and swinging a blacksmith hammer. I have been asked to "stick around" and make sure situations don't go south on many occasions and I never like being in that situation. I avoid them as much as possible unless its someone in my inner circle that needs me to keep an eye on things. In reading your posts, you are very sure of yourself and very confident in your abilities. That isn't a bad thing, but letting that confidence put you in compromising situations is a very bad thing.

The bar owner basically invited you to be the target of the fat drunk aggressor, with no plans for calling the police or doing anything to stop the situation from continuing to go south and you willingly agreed to stick around until the fight started.
 
redneck said:
The bar let the guy get intoxicated to the point of the altercation, he received an injury that very likely resulted in a concussion, and was then allowed to drive. Seems like an ambulance chaser's wet dream to me.
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I can't say what condition that person was in when he arrived, how long he had been there, or what he may have partaken of that wasn't purchased from behind the bar, and I don't own the bar, so I can't offer anything on that. I'm also not a lawyer (I pay people who went to law school to do that work for me) as far as detaining him vs. "allowing him to leave"- with him being an armed threat to others, I think that would be considered in such a case (shall we continue to fight with bats and lumber in order to keep him from driving, or just disengage from this combative individual)?

redneck said:
its someone in my inner circle that needs me to keep an eye on things. In reading your posts, you are very sure of yourself and very confident in your abilities. That isn't a bad thing, but letting that confidence put you in compromising situations is a very bad thing.
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The owners qualify as my "inner circle", who I would never turn my back on. As far as confidence, I have learned the lesson more than once not to judge a book by its cover; in fact I have re-learned that lesson many times under many different circumstances- I know any fight of any kind is anyone's fight until its over, but I have also learned to make an opponent take/earn a win. I have taken a "L" and been surprised by it.

redneck said:
The bar owner basically invited you to be the target of the fat drunk aggressor, with no plans for calling the police or doing anything to stop the situation from continuing to go south and you willingly agreed to stick around until the fight started.
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The bar owners had no desire for an altercation- its bad for business. What the lady owner/friend did was reach out to me for help to prevent an altercation- she is a dear friend who was in an uncomfortable situation that she wasn't up to handling on her own. MOST people in my experience will be reasonable and not just go full tilt stupid without provocation (I worked- and spent lots of time and $- in bars when I was in college). I showed up and became her plan, and my first plan didn't work, nor did plan B, so I had to go to plan C, with restraint. As far as the owners" (there are 2) and other staff decision to call or not call anyone, or if they did and either showed up much later or never showed up, I just don't know. I was never part of any such discussion or decision making regarding making phone calls, and in the moment, I was too busy to do it myself if I had wanted to.
 
FL-NC said:
I can't say what condition that person was in when he arrived, how long he had been there, or what he may have partaken of that wasn't purchased from behind the bar, and I don't own the bar, so I can't offer anything on that. I'm also not a lawyer (I pay people who went to law school to do that work for me) as far as detaining him vs. "allowing him to leave"- with him being an armed threat to others, I think that would be considered in such a case (shall we continue to fight with bats and lumber in order to keep him from driving, or just disengage from this combative individual)?


The owners qualify as my "inner circle", who I would never turn my back on. As far as confidence, I have learned the lesson more than once not to judge a book by its cover; in fact I have re-learned that lesson many times under many different circumstances- I know any fight of any kind is anyone's fight until its over, but I have also learned to make an opponent take/earn a win. I have taken a "L" and been surprised by it.


The bar owners had no desire for an altercation- its bad for business. What the lady owner/friend did was reach out to me for help to prevent an altercation- she is a dear friend who was in an uncomfortable situation that she wasn't up to handling on her own. MOST people in my experience will be reasonable and not just go full tilt stupid without provocation (I worked- and spent lots of time and $- in bars when I was in college). I showed up and became her plan, and my first plan didn't work, nor did plan B, so I had to go to plan C, with restraint. As far as the owners" (there are 2) and other staff decision to call or not call anyone, or if they did and either showed up much later or never showed up, I just don't know. I was never part of any such discussion or decision making regarding making phone calls, and in the moment, I was too busy to do it myself if I had wanted to.
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I don't hold you responsible for whether he drove or not, you stayed inside and tried to let the situation calm down. I also don't agree with trying to "detain" him as nobody present had that legal authority. I do think the establishment has some kind of legal responsibility to at least alert authorities that someone who is intoxicated with a possible head injury is getting on the road. I have been involved in coordinating too many events to believe that "he's an adult and chose to drive" frees anyone from any liability. That is less of a tactics question and more of a "how do I stay out of court?" question.

The way I read your account the owner asked you to step in and protect her from a bad situation she saw coming, and that is well and good, except there was no other plan to stop the situation. It wasn't stay here with me until the cops get here, or stay here with me until the other owner excuses him, it was stay here and hope he's intimidated out of causing any trouble. He called your bluff, you backed it up, but in the end you ended up in a fight with a guy that originally had zero interest in you and probably would never have approached you if you hadn't inserted yourself in the situation.
 
So- your problem is with the bar owners and their lack of planning? I didn't demand a detailed plan to help my friends, and there was no need to call the cops at that time anyway- the man was drunk and being a jerk, but not hostile or violent. In other words, no crime had been committed, and there was still a chance he would switch to water or coffee, or better yet go outside and pass out in his truck or get a ride. And BTW, the whole thing from the time I first spoke to her until impact was definitely less than 3 minutes, in my estimation- the part from first contact with the drunk to impact was less than 10 seconds elapsed time- probably not enough time to identify the problem and a "call the cops" solution, put the password in a cell phone (which was probably not in someone's hand at the moment), dial 3 additional digits, and hit send. There was still beer in the neck of the Miller lite bottle I received when I walked in the door at that time. There was no time for a "tactical meeting"- the whole thing happened very quickly (much faster than it is taking you to read this) and was not a situation that transpired over a long period of time (at least the portions I was there for). This happened on a stretch of highway that is not heavily patrolled- nor is the portion of interstate 10 that runs through the area- this is evident by the way drivers speed through there with complete impunity, but slow down when they are approaching a town. No idea what response time may have been, but probably not fast enough to get there before the donnybrook outside had begun had they called after the drunk was ejected- but who knows for sure. Getting into a scrap to back up a female friend who is essentially defenseless without using some type of weapon (60 years old and overweight, and not in great physical shape in general) is a risk I just have to assume and accept- a scrap that was trying to be avoided until it couldn't be. A paid "bouncer" every night (almost certainly with questionable training, since Pat Swayze is no longer with us) who would rarely if ever be utilized would be a serious cash drain on that small business's bottom line, and probably would not have prevented that drunk from acting out anyway. The owner often works shifts behind the bar herself only for tips just to save $ paying someone else for shifts during the week that they probably would not want to do anyway- just to keep the place open.
 
This whole discussion is rife with assumptions that one can safely assume what another will do based on appearances. I think some of it is wishful thinking.

I suggest reading Facing Violence, by Rory Miller.
 
Yes, the OP was about how quickly things change on the ground. I don't think it was intended as instruction on how to react. Your thoughts may be a useful addition to the conversation, but criticism of how it was handled or conjecture on what should have happened is of little value. If you have had similar experience, information on how quickly it arose and how it played out may be useful.
 
Except in screen fiction, every confrontational event develops very quickly--and perhaps with serious consequence. Even when things end well, the path to resolution can be tenuous at best.

That is why avoidance is paramount.

The event cited in the OP seems to have ended without real difficulty, but it can still continue to run its course.

That is why the policy in ST&T is to refrain from posing "this happened to me" accounts.

We have a sticky on that.
 
I would have skipped the overhand right to the face. Too many things can go wrong with that either breaking your own hand or knocking him down in such a way where he suffers serious injury. In all my years on the job I've never needed to punch anyone in the face. There are other much better ways of controlling aggressive drunk people that are far less likely to injure either party and they also look much better to bystanders.

Sounds like it all turned out in the end and I don't like to Monday morning quarterback too hard but those are my thoughts.
 
FL-NC said:
Not my usual sub-forum, but I thought I'd share the story of my Friday evening.
my friend behind the bar had my beverage of choice in hand as I walked in. I saw one of the owners- another close friend- seated at the bar with a very large (about 300 pounds, and not the "fit" type) and obviously intoxicated customer speaking to her- I had never seen him before, but the conversation looked friendly enough so I didn't think anything of it. A few moments later, he ambled away and she waved me over, and we exchanged greetings. Then she told me the big guy was drunk, had been behaving impolitely, and she had cut him off from any more alcohol. He had been begging her to allow him to drink some more, and she said NO. She also asked me to hang out next to her and occupy that space for a while to prevent him from coming back and pestering her.
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FL-NC said:
This is a friendly little tavern on a fairly remote stretch of highway in the Fl panhandle serving locals almost exclusively.
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FL-NC said:
I don't know if such a policy exists there. I've never heard of that, it sounds like a good tool. I know conventional wisdom often says to stay out of certain places like bars and such, but alcohol is also served in places like Texas Roadhouse, Hooters, Applebees, etc. Heck, they even offer beer at Cracker Barrel now. Get on youtube and type "gas station fight" or "fast food restaurant fight" or "wal mart fight". Some of the first "real" brawls I witnessed as a kid were at Tampa stadium at Buccaneer games- too bad the home team didn't play with the same level of commitment as the spectators in the stands. Stupid can strike anywhere, at any time.
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I sometimes (as seldom as I possibly can, but I have to appease my wife) go to restaurants that serve alcohol, but not the "bar".
Because I'm definitely carrying (wife would be too), and there is this:
https://www.fdacs.gov/Consumer-Resources/Concealed-Weapon-License/Possession-Restrictions
The following is a list of places where you are restricted from carrying a weapon or firearm even if you have a license:
Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose
Looks to me like the "bar" is off limits but the rest of the restaurant is okay, like at Texas Roadhouse, Applebees, ect...
I don't go in the places on that list unless I have to, for example: courthouse, police station and the "bar" of a restaurant is easy to avoid.
 
This underscores the point that it can happen anywhere, any time.

There are, however, people who believe the victim picks the time, place and manner of attack. They will say things like, "Where are you going that you need a gun/all that ammo, etc." The answer is, "I don't pick the time or place, so I need to be ready."
 
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