Lil'Gun and Your Forcing Cone?

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Quick observation: the burn rate for Lil'Gin is 85th and H110 is 87th on loaddata.com, where Norma R-1 is 1st (fastest) and Vihtavuori 20N21 is 197th (slowest). So both Lil'Gun and H110 are in the bottom 1/2 of powder burn rates where pistol powders reside.

The burn rate will tell you how long the powder continues burning in the barrel, so maybe if it’s burning all the way down the barrel, it heats up the barrel more. But the problem is what happens in the beginning when the bullet’s jumping from the cylinder into the barrel.
 
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I occasionally shoot Lil Gun in my Ruger Blackhawk and S&W 686. Yes, the gun heats quickly and gets hotter than with milder loads of other powder. But.;.the Lil Gun loads are the most accurate loads I have shot and I see no damage. All with 158 grain bullets. I only shoot something like a box or two a year to keep me familiar with recoil. I have never tried H110. Probably my mistake but 20 or so years ago the reloading shop thought Lil Gun was the go to powder when I asked for advice. I am still loading from the same jug. So I have not shot a lot of it. I just loaded up another 50 this week. I also sometimes use Tightgroup. But sorta prefer Universal when I have it.

I have read the internet stuff from Freedom Arms. I would not use Lil gun in one of their guns for sure. I have no idea if the concept is true. I just do not think it has affected my guns and at the levels I use it I am not much worried.
 
Has any other wheelgun manufacturer (besides Freedom Arms) issued a warning about Lil’Gun?
 
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Gun makers almost universally warn against using reloaded ammunition, so their position is if it's commercially made ammo built to industry pressure standards, it's good to go. FA was the only entity I've seen do so (and even that is no longer find-able in its original posting).
 
I have seen no cutting, but accuracy is top notch and deer are DRT.

I don't shoot a lot of full house magnums, but .30 Carbine gets quite a bit.
 
I have been using lilgun in my 500 magnum with loads varying from 25-35gr of powder and bullet weights of 440, 500 and 700grs. I bought this gun used and didn't notice anything horrible but I never looked at the barrel like I have until this thread, I see some marks but nothing horrible what do you guys think? 700grs 20220820_043910.jpg 20220820_043921.jpg 20220820_044041.jpg
 
I've used Lil Gun in my 5.5 inch Redhawk and yes, it does heat up the cylinder overly quickly. Of course, I was shooting over-pressure 357 mag rounds through it (around 1550 with a 158 (180?) grain hard cast bullet, if I recall correctly). I didn't have a lot of luck, but did have a lot of leading, as I was pushing the bullet too fast and it did not feel good on the web of my hand. I didn't like that it heated up the cylinder so quickly. I don't think it damaged anything though.

I prefer 2400 for magnum type loads, even though I have enough H110 and Lil Gun on the shelf. After all, what's 50 to 100 FPS going to do at the speeds we are talking?
 
First and foremost, Iowegan is a legend in his own mind. He's nowhere near as smart as he thinks and he will ban you from his sandbox if you challenge him when he's wrong. The late Denis Prisbrey (DPris) and I found out the hard way.

I was involved in a discussion on a private forum where Baker told exactly what happened with Lil' Gun and why. It was due to the heat generated by that particular powder, no doubt exacerbated by the .454's 65,000psi pressure rating. This was not an admonition against Hodgdon but Lil Gun specifically and the recommendation was to stick to H110. Also has nothing to do with bullet weight. Freedom Arms has also never done anything but endorse handloading. They even publish their own data. Baker had no reason to lie and I know of no justification for impugning his character.


LaneP said:
It appears Lil'gun is also used in some of the Buffalo Bore magnum ammo.
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That's interesting but you can't duplicate Buffalo Bore's ammo. They use non-canister powders like W297, not Lil Gun.
 
These are my personal observations.

Lil'Gun is an excellent powder in some applications but not for others. I gave it a try years ago loading 180gr bullets for my .357 Magnum ammo. I shot a few in my 4" M686 and I could not believe how very hot my barrel was after only 6 rounds. I realize then all the talk about the heat generated by it was true and I didn't shoot any more of that ammo in my revolver. Lil'Gun does generate high velocities with lower pressures than similar slow powders so it's a real shame it generates so much heat.

Now for the good. Those 180gr bullets shot extremely well in my .357 Marlin levergun. The heat didn't seem as bad and of course there is no forcing cone to melt. I did not shoot a lot but rarely do in any rifle.

Remember, Lil'Gun was developed as a shotgun powder so the heat was normal with shotgun ammo. It is an amazing 410 powder.

More good, if any powder could resurrect the 22 Hornet as a good varmint cartridge Lil'Gun is that powder. It will deliver 300 fps to 500 fps more velocity with lower pressures than other powders like H110/W296, H4198, H4227 and a few others. Its amazing you can achieve over 2700fps in the 22 Hornet with a 50gr bullet. Now that's a good varmint cartridge with much less recoil that a .222 Rem or a .223 Rem.
 
CraigC said:
I was involved in a discussion on a private forum where Baker told exactly what happened with Lil' Gun and why. It was due to the heat generated by that particular powder, no doubt exacerbated by the .454's 65,000psi pressure rating. This was not an admonition against Hodgdon but Lil Gun specifically and the recommendation was to stick to H110. Also has nothing to do with bullet weight. Freedom Arms has also never done anything but endorse handloading. They even publish their own data. Baker had no reason to lie and I know of no justification for impugning his character.
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^^^ I tend to agree. Like him or not, Bob Baker knows his revolvers. If I'm taking advice or recommendations from someone, it would be him long before some random, self proclaimed expert, that posts on the internet.

ArchAngelCD said:
These are my personal observations.

Lil'Gun is an excellent powder in some applications but not for others. I gave it a try years ago loading 180gr bullets for my .357 Magnum ammo. I shot a few in my 4" M686 and I could not believe how very hot my barrel was after only 6 rounds. I realize then all the talk about the heat generated by it was true and I didn't shoot any more of that ammo in my revolver. Lil'Gun does generate high velocities with lower pressures than similar slow powders so it's a real shame it generates so much heat.
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^^^ My observations also. My deduction is there is no free lunch. To get higher velocities from less pressure, there has to be some kind of cost. It ain't because of magic fairy dust. My experience is that it substantially increases the heat produced in any firearm I shot it in, including handgun caliber carbines. This to the point where you could not touch the barrel or receivers. Have never had that issue with any other powder, regardless of how many times the gun was shot in succession. This in itself, even with no increase risk of excessive and premature forcing cone erosion, is enough for me to shy away from it.

In the long run, it's pretty simple........My guns, I can do what I want. Your guns, do what you want.
 
Lol, and just like I said on page one. "I read somebody on some forum said it". Still no data other than "I heard". It's laughable how this stuff takes on a life of its own. As I said before....I'm willing to change my opinion as soon as somebody can produce something other than "I heard it on the internet". Like I said originally, one guy made a comment, he's never presented any evidence to support it, and because he holds a position in the industry "he must know what he's talking about". And yet.......there is no other evidence anywhere. And like I pointed out originally, if it was so apt to damage a revolver's forcing cone....lol, it probably wouldn't be one of the most popular subsonic 300 BLK powders out there. Those guys would be screaming right now...if it would easily heat score a revolver's forcing cone...what might you think it would do to an AR impingement system? Lol, yeah, that's right......doesn't make much sense does it. Yes it runs hot...I can fry bacon on my suppressor with it...but I can do that with H110, RL7 and SBR Socom too. I think any reasonable person understands that any magnum pistol powder, of any type, from any maker, loaded up to a max load and fed to a revolver on a regular basis, is going to result in wear over time. It's the nature of the beast. Until there is some actual credible evidence, this subject is nothing but repeating "I heard somebody on a forum say this".
 
jski said:
Has any other wheelgun manufacturer (besides Freedom Arms) issued a warning about Lil’Gun?
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To be honest, FA in fact never issued the warning. One person made the statement on a forum, but there was never any follow up, or any presentation of data to support it. Since then, it's been 100% repeated across the internet, all referencing that original statement. Freedom Arms publishes load data for their guns. Their load data does not include Lil Gun. They have a full page of other warnings, but there are no warning listed on their published load data regarding Lil Gun. Like I said on page 1, I don't have a dog in this race. I don't use it, but I have used it, and it has a place and works for a lot of things, just not what I prefer. I didn't quit using it because of anything wrong with it...I just found things I like much much better. Here's straight from FA, no warning about it as you see: https://freedomarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/454-Loading-Data.pdf
 
EricBu said:
Lol, and just like I said on page one. "I read somebody on some forum said it". Still no data other than "I heard". It's laughable how this stuff takes on a life of its own. As I said before....I'm willing to change my opinion as soon as somebody can produce something other than "I heard it on the internet". Like I said originally, one guy made a comment, he's never presented any evidence to support it, and because he holds a position in the industry "he must know what he's talking about". And yet.......there is no other evidence anywhere. And like I pointed out originally, if it was so apt to damage a revolver's forcing cone....lol, it probably wouldn't be one of the most popular subsonic 300 BLK powders out there. Those guys would be screaming right now...if it would easily heat score a revolver's forcing cone...what might you think it would do to an AR impingement system? Lol, yeah, that's right......doesn't make much sense does it. Yes it runs hot...I can fry bacon on my suppressor with it...but I can do that with H110, RL7 and SBR Socom too. I think any reasonable person understands that any magnum pistol powder, of any type, from any maker, loaded up to a max load and fed to a revolver on a regular basis, is going to result in wear over time. It's the nature of the beast. Until there is some actual credible evidence, this subject is nothing but repeating "I heard somebody on a forum say this".
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"I heard it on the internet" is rather vague and covers a lot of ground. I hear a lot of crap on the internet. Like this post for example. Nobody knows who you are. Nobody knows who I am. One must consider the source and IMHO, the names Bob and Wayne Baker carry FAR more credibility than your average anonymous forum member. The whole forum was that way. These weren't a bunch of know-nothings repeating whatever gossip they heard at the gun shop or local watering hole. It was started by members of The Shootists organization and if you know who John Taffin is, you probably have some idea who they are. So not 'just' a forum and not 'just' any ole discussion by random anonymous people. If Bob or Wayne Baker said there was accelerated forcing cone erosion observed with Lil Gun and no other powder, then that is what happened. You're free to disregard it if you like. I don't see any point in risking it for another 50fps. Not while H110 does the job quite nicely and if more is needed, 300MP is better than both anyway.
 
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