Where is the Winchester Model 94 Action most likely to fail?

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Dr T

Dr T

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I was looking over the diagram of the the Winchester 94 action and was wondering:

In the case it is fed a massively overpressure cartridge, where is the gun most likely to fail?
 
Can’t tell you the answer to your specific question but I can tell you that after a lot of use the action will loosen up and the lever will hang loose rather than riding up against the stock. I don’t know if it’s a functional problem but it’s always put me off the design.
 
The falling blocks that support the bolt should be plenty strong.
As a SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess), a really massive overload would likely grenade the gun.
Why do you ask, Weed Hopper?
Moon
 
The 1894 trigger safety requires the lever to be squeezed to press the safety in, so there is natural looseness in every 1894 I have owned or shot.

I am trying to recall any 1894 actions with a catastrophic failure. (I'm 74.) I think we'll have to wait for a long-time gunsmith to chime in.
My opinion is the the 1894 is over engineered for the factory cartridges it is chambered for.
 
I have wondered about the strength of the falling block. To me, the falling blocks on the 1892 and 1895 have always "looked" more substantial.

Why am I asking? For me, it is a basic issue of scientific curiosity (WAGs and SWAGs notwithstanding). A nightmare scenario for me is accidentally charging a rifle case with a fast pistol powder (why I am very, very careful with powders when I reload). Also, I have never come across an instance of catastrophic failure of a Model 94, but since it has been around 128 years, I am pretty sure it has happened at least once.
 
I know someone who "found" the max load for a nice "Victory" model S&W in .38spl. I have it hanging on my wall. (no it wasn't me) Anyhow, I heard once that when a '94 fails, it's where the shank of the barrel threads into the receiver. I'm going totally on memory here, so don't quote me, or hate me if it's wrong. I don't remember where I heard or read that, but I do remember that being said/stated/whatever.
 
Mosin77 said:
Can’t tell you the answer to your specific question but I can tell you that after a lot of use the action will loosen up and the lever will hang loose rather than riding up against the stock. I don’t know if it’s a functional problem but it’s always put me off the design.
Click to expand...
The model 94 lever is not supposed to be tight against the stock until you squeeze it. This disengages the safety as mentioned by halfmoonclip.
 
I have not seen any M94 Kabooms, in person, or online.

Dr T said:
massively overpressure cartridge,
Click to expand...

Everything will fail. Like these firearms. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/kaboom.24/
Proof loads will increase headspace if fired on a regular bassis.

The old 30WCF guns are much more likely to accidently discharge, caused by human error.

This gun is mostly used by hunters. They shoot factory ammo. Most will sight in the rifle each year. A paper plate is the target @ 50 or 100 yards. If the first shot hits the paper plate, its good to go.
A box of 20 rounds lasts forever. Seen this many times.
 
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I don't really know for sure, never seen it, but I recall reading the receiver will stretch, as the weakest point if it is overloaded. No idea if it cracks or just gets loose and affects lock up, just something I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere.
 
There's enough give to the action that they don't seem to "blow-up", but stretch and become very loose. To blow the action up, someone might need to put a full case of bullseye into the case. Plugging the bore will only result in the barrel to bulge/blow-up.
 
It depends. Based on failures in Marlin M1895s chambered in .45-70, my guess is the barrel/action will fail by expanding or rupturing at the receiver ring - when chambered in large diameter cartridges like the .307 and .356 WCF, the .45 LC and the .450 Marlin. These chamberings leave very little metal under the barrel threads, reducing the strength there substantially versus a smaller case like the .30-30.

Remember too that Winchester beefed up the receiver around the locking block when they introduced high pressure cartridges like the .375 WCF and the .307 WCF, but whether that was to reduce the risk of an action failure - or for marketing purposes - remains unclear. The receiver metallurgy changed several times over the rifle’s production - cast, forged, sintered metal, different heat treatments - so the failure mode also likely depends on the date of manufacture.




.
 

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25-20 WCF said:
It depends. Based on failures in Marlin M1895s chambered in .45-70, my guess is the barrel/action will fail by expanding or rupturing at the receiver ring - when chambered in large diameter cartridges like the .307 and .356 WCF, the .45 LC and the .450 Marlin. These chamberings leave very little metal under the barrel threads, reducing the strength there substantially versus a smaller case like the .30-30.

Remember too that Winchester beefed up the receiver around the locking block when they introduced high pressure cartridges like the .375 WCF and the .307 WCF, but whether that was to reduce the risk of an action failure - or for marketing purposes - remains unclear. The receiver metallurgy changed several times over the rifle’s production - cast, forged, sintered metal, different heat treatments - so the failure mode also likely depends on the date of manufacture.




.
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Isn't that a Marlin? I haven't seen a blown up lever action of any type. The only thing I've read about was 454 model 92s stretching the frame.
I still want one though.
 
Googled "Winchester model 94 blow ups" and found this. Looks pretty ugly!
 

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I read an article on PO Ackley in the latest Guns&Ammo, it mentions tests he did on the 1894 action in years past.

View attachment 1101047 221C2AAC-99E9-46E5-98A3-7BB7DC3D233C.jpeg

I guess Ackley’s description of the 1894 action ‘flexing and then springing back’ explains why the actions look intact but the barrel/action junctions failed in the pictures of the kabooms above. Not a scientific rationale, just a guess. :)

Stay safe.
 
Rear lockup means bad things for the receiver in an over pressure event - a forward locking bolt will rupture at the barrel breech with less dependency upon structural integrity of the bolt raceways to contain the energy. Rear lockers will open more readily because the raceways effectively represent structural compromises, and there is inevitably more room for things to move in front of the lock. Another way of describing it - in a front locker, the lock has to fail, but in a rear locker, the lock can survive and the receiver can fail in front of it.

This weakness of design is one reason why we don’t see big, high pressure cartridges chambered into leverguns.
 
This is a link to a video of the remains of a blown-up 1894 Winchester 38-55. As several posters have already speculated, it appears that it's the front of the 1894 receiver that suffers the brunt of the damage in an over pressure excursion.

LINK TO DAMAGED WINCHESTER 1894 38-55.

 
Mosin77 said:
Can’t tell you the answer to your specific question but I can tell you that after a lot of use the action will loosen up and the lever will hang loose rather than riding up against the stock. I don’t know if it’s a functional problem but it’s always put me off the design.
Click to expand...
That's usually just the little friction stud, very easy fix
 
Isn't that a Marlin? I haven't seen a blown up lever action of any type. The only thing I've read about was 454 model 92s stretching the frame….
Click to expand...


As clearly stated in my post, yes it’s a Marlin. Isn’t the .454 M92 a Rossi? Anyway, my post just demonstrated a potential failure point of lever actions, supported by post #19. But IMO that failure would probably only happen with large diameter cases, which means much more radial force applied to the barrel/receiver ring, and less barrel steel to contain that force than with smaller cases like the .30-30.




.
 
halfmoonclip said:
Dr T, we were just checking that you weren't channeling your inner Elmer Keith.
For anyone too young to know Elmer, he found max loads for hot .44 Specials when the topstrap came off the revolver, and then backed the load off by 10%. ;)
Moon
Click to expand...

That was Colt single action 45 that blew the top strap........NOT a .44 spl.........I have his books..........He never blew up a .44 spl..
 
See the link below which shows some of Elmer's handy work with a 45 Colt. That's why he switched to a 44 Special. They were harder to blow up.

LINK TO ELMER'S HANDY WORK.
 
Varminterror said:
Rear lockup means bad things for the receiver in an over pressure event - a forward locking bolt will rupture at the barrel breech with less dependency upon structural integrity of the bolt raceways to contain the energy. Rear lockers will open more readily because the raceways effectively represent structural compromises, and there is inevitably more room for things to move in front of the lock. Another way of describing it - in a front locker, the lock has to fail, but in a rear locker, the lock can survive and the receiver can fail in front of it.

This weakness of design is one reason why we don’t see big, high pressure cartridges chambered into leverguns.
Click to expand...
the Browning BLR locks up at the front like a bolt gun. not a traditional lever gun tho but you know that
 
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