Small base die for semi-autos?

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South Prairie Jim said:
A list of die manufactures that actually MAKE and LIST a small base with internal dimensions would be helpful, anything less is just conjecture and banter.
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Being tapered as well as adjustable for height, one would almost need to size something dead soft with all of them and measure results.

I have had dies that couldn’t adequately size a case for a rifle, instead of ordering a “undersize” die for it (they don’t exist) I just took a few thousands off the face of the die, so I could lower it further and make my problem go away.

FWIW this is also shell holder specific because it’s the part that is the “stop” for the die, where there is no more adjustment.
 
jmorris said:
I just took a few thousands off the face of the die, so I could lower it further and make my problem go away.
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Possibly an ignorant question, but could one mill off the face of the shellholder to achieve a similar effect. Or would doing that disrupt the integrity of the shellholder...?
Does a small base die also reach the shoulder of the case ?
I have NO experience with those types of dies.....
 
Soonerpesek said:
Possibly an ignorant question, but could one mill off the face of the shellholder to achieve a similar effect. Or would doing that disrupt the integrity of the shellholder...?
Does a small base die also reach the shoulder of the case ?
I have NO experience with those types of dies.....
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So far I’ve yet to see anyone post a small base die they have purchased.
yes just take a couple thousand off a shell holder.
 
jmorris said:
Being tapered as well as adjustable for height, one would almost need to size something dead soft with all of them and measure results.

I have had dies that couldn’t adequately size a case for a rifle, instead of ordering a “undersize” die for it (they don’t exist) I just took a few thousands off the face of the die, so I could lower it further and make my problem go away.

FWIW this is also shell holder specific because it’s the part that is the “stop” for the die, where there is no more adjustment.
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The taper is so slight that I really don’t think you could take enough off to change the body reduction.
I say make an experiment and report back.
Measure the .200 line then take .020 off the die and compare the reduction at the .200 line
What are you referring to when you say she’ll holder specific ?
Sammi chamber minus .125 would be my guess .
 
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GW Staar said:
I see......so my brand new Remington AR-10 wouldn't chamber because of a "rim fragment" from brand new factory Federals. Yet it fired a whole box of Remington factory as fast as I could pull the trigger. Glad you figured that out.........and RCBS and Dillon and Redding are stupid for even thinking about making small base rifles dies for AR's. They shoulda come to you, to show them why SB dies are unnecessay trash.

I concede to your experience with the old technology, as I've never bought or shot an A-1, A-1A, F-14 or anything like them .....well except for a mini-14.

But I do have one question. When army's come together like for example, Russia and Ukraine, (or anything resembling war) when do they have time to stop and measure each rifle to make dependable ammo for them? They don't. They use only dependable factory.....with small bases that chamber easily in every last one of them, unless they have been run over by a tank.

It's my opinion that such dependability is more important than getting 5 more reloads out of a piece of brass by insisting in "minimal brass movement."

If you want a stash of ammo for defense.....that's dependable in ANY rifle in a caliber......either use new factory or small base reloads.....the next best thing. Why are they the next best thing? Because they mimic the easy chambering of factory with bases which are closest to factory diameter.

You are not the only one who's reloaded for 50 + years....I have all my fingers and toes too.
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You are MISSING the point totally ; I only suggested there are other causes for ammo not moving into battery .

WHY do YOU suppose ammunition manufacturer's make ammunition UNDER MINIMUM chamber size ? . Universal fit would be My guess ,so regardless of chamber ammo goes in . I tried explaining in plain English You nor anyone else Needs SB dies in order to do that .

Minimal Brass movement is preferred for ACCURACY as well as Longevity . If all you plan on doing is making mass universal fit ammo , why bother ; Just buy a Chinese SKS and surplus steel case ammo pray and spray what's the difference
 
MEHavey said:
Counting toes here.... (`got to 7 before trying to remember breakfast) :thumbdown:

That said, an SB die is useful/called-for when first resizing pick-up and/or military brass -- especially if the OP is using it in any type of Garand-based action.
Once SB-resized, though, normal dies 'should' suffice thereafter if fire in the same chamber.
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Agreed : Below generalization not aimed at anyone .

In My experience the worst offender on brass cases are SAW and Auto weapons in general . Sometimes after measuring and sizing wonder IF they actually locked up before firing because of the oversized dimensions .

What I do know factually is Military chambers are MORE GENEROUS than Civilian counterparts . Again generally civilian weapons are tighter tolerance built for accuracy . Military are made too FUNCTION . Not many folks are happy shooting 2.5-4 MOA with a brand new AR 10 ,leastwise not amongst shooters I know . Have never seen a gun magazine review rave about 2.5 MOA :)
 
jmorris said:
Yes, the fellow with a drawer full of datum’s. Not really the heart of a teacher but a head containing knowledge, just the same.
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Yeah that’s the guy ..
Sometimes I wish I had the skills and tools you machinist have,:oops: I’ve just had to learn how to navigate my way through a couple areas to get anywhere close to competitive. I tip my hat to you guys for sure.
 
South Prairie Jim said:
Perfect ‘ if someone has a question regarding internal dimensions of that die you have the answer.
Thank you
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Not all SB dies are of the same dimensions ditto with FL dies , manufacturers vary as do machining tolerances unfortunately .


As I posted earlier I've an inordinate # of Dies including SB in nearly every manufacturers brand .

Here is something of interest from the Technical Dept. :

Full length and body dies DO NOT return the cartridge case to its ‘original dimensions due to “spring back”. The cartridge case will always try to spring back to what it was fired too. The full length and body dies size the cartridge case so that when the cartridge case does try to spring back to what it was fired to in your chamber that it is still undersized slightly (depends on the internal dimension of THAT DIE) to chamber easily in most cases. There are times however where the die may have internal dimensions that are to the large side of SAMMI specs and the chamber of the rifle is to the small side of SAMMI specs where the cartridge case is NOT SIZED ENOUGH so that when it springs back as it comes out of the die that it now MAY not chamber ( when it did before sizing) or chambers hard.Using once fired range brass can be the main culprit here also. What happens is that the case body is sized but the shoulder area of the cartridge case is either not touched or not touched enough to move the shoulder back or move the shoulder back enough so that when the cartridge case springs back it is still oversize in head space for the rifles chamber. In this situation you can have material removed from the bottom of the die to shorten it or contact the manufacturer, send them the die and some fired cartridge samples and have them hone a new die for you if they offer that service. Small base dies MAY not solve this issue either as they are made to a smaller case body sizing dimension but do not always have a smaller shoulder sizing dimension.

This came from Titan's website :

Small Base Die Explanation
If you have the Lee Pacesetter die set with a full length-sizing die, you shouldn’t need a small base die. Other manufacturers make small base dies on the premise that semi-autos require cases sized to the minimum allowable case dimension for reliable feeding, but in reality most semi-autos have chambers cut on the large side for that same purpose. The result is overworked brass and shortened case life. If you have any chambering problems with ammunition that has been sized with a Lee full length sizing die, return the die and a couple fired cases to the factory for free adjustment.
 
BushMaster15 quote- Not all SB dies are of the same dimensions ditto with FL dies , manufacturers vary as do machining tolerances unfortunately .

Yes quite right and should be understood
and I was referring to THAT particular RCBS die and none others.
My point of involvement in thread was to get guys thinking and sharing information.
In the long range Benchrest community sharing die information is fairly common.
 
Gentlemen.....I didn't miss any of the points....and all are valid in one way or another for one purpose or another. Sorry if you think I'm creating "drama", but which one of you would appreciate someone trying to minimize your point of view. It all depends on why you are reloading for gas guns.

Lee's quote, speaking of drama, posted upsized and bold, while true in some cases, doesn't fix anything for more than one firearm.......they want you to send in their dies and a couple of cases from one rifle, so they can "Adjust" the die in question for your firearm. That's great if you only care about one sample.

Am I the only one on this forum who buys military style semiautos for preparedness? My goal is not how many times I can reload a piece of brass, it's to have ammo I can rely on and use, or even "supply" to friends, neighbors or countrymen to help defend our families, communities, and country, if it should ever come to that (heaven forbid). Such ammunition has to be absolutely reliable in ANY weapon of that caliber.....not just the one I have today.

Reliability is why manufactured chambers for military style rifles are indeed ample for most factory ammo. It was pointed out that dies vary, even SB dies; chambers too....all absolutely true. And all that can bite us, in scenarios where we want to reload ammo just as reliable as factory or military ammo, in case we need it for things more serious than deer hunting or competition.

Think about what politics has done to limit supply of ammo and components available to us sportsmen in the last few years. We can't rely on factory ammo to be available when such a need arises, or components either! Ukraine is lucky to have "free" sources of such factory made ammo to fight their enemies. Where'd it come from? You know where. Where's yours going to come from if our own government devolves into something we can't abide? or China or Russia decides to start a war on our turf? Think burying our heads in the sand will help? Think our politicians will help us? Their form of help is to take those guns away.

So in a nut shell, I only have one point.....make ammo for these military calibers that will work in every weapon not just yours.... Now I'm not against a target rifle, or a hunting rifle chamber and barrel "measured" with specially developed ammo for just one gun. But such are pretty limited in usefulness, barely more useful than a safe queen. SB dies have an important place....to make ammo as close to "reliable" factory as you can make it. And that's why Dillon chose to go that route.
 
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You're not the only one, GW Staar. I demand complete functionability across the board with my .223 reloads. I load for 4 different AR's, and two bolts.
I went to SB dies for semi autos when my Rem. 742 .30-06 wouldn't chamber FL sized reloads. My dad shot a bolt '06, and had FL dies, so that's what I used. I bought SB dies, which solved the problem.
Any trade off in case life is worth it to me.
 
GW Staar said:
So in a nut shell, I only have one point.....make ammo for these military calibers that will work in every weapon not just yours....
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entropy said:
You're not the only one, GW Staar. I demand complete functionability across the board with my .223 reloads. I load for 4 different AR's, and two bolts.
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Me three.

I reload for several 223 Rem AR-15's and had chambering issues with certain combinations of rifles, cases and standard full length sizing dies. With a small base sizing die, I have eliminated chambering issues and can use any of my 223 Rem ammunition in any of my rifles.

I have not found any reduction in case life using small base dies. The cases have the same life and fail for other reasons than "over" working the body of the case with the small base sizing die.

Like I said before, there are many circumstances where one does not need small base sizing dies. With semi-auto rifles, for me, small base sizing dies are cheap insurance against chambering issues.
 
I never needed a small base die for my SAI M1A and after ~3,000 rounds through it never had a single FTF or FTE
 
South Prairie Jim said:
@Walkalong
Was Guffey banned from this forum or is he still a member ?
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He's older than me......maybe he got a transfer to the next level. Hasn't been here for a while....hope he's not sick or unable. That transfer I speak of, is coming for all of us....the more things go bad here with me and the world, the more I look forward to it. ;)

I miss his most interesting view. I'm sure a few of you are looking forward to my transfer.
 
jmorris said:
It would be better to use something dead soft so differences in cases, (individual “spring back”) wouldn’t make our measurements less meaningful.
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You may have a point and always the possibility of a case resisting and springing back but we do a couple or three, I believe that we’ll be close enough for discussion purposes .
Attached - I’m comparing two dies for the same caliber noting quite a difference in radial sizing
 

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