My vote would be against a 16" barrel but thats mostly as I dont like full powered short carbines. I would hazard a loss of 100fps over 20" and 150-200fps over a 24" barrel. It would be enough to be a deal killer for me. Again I am not part of the fashion for short barrels, nor ultralight rifles. 24", standard stock and profile 358 win would be a great gun
Is there still hope for the.338 federal?
- Thread starter MISportsman
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Swampman
Old Fart
It seems like most of the .338 bullets out there are designed more for .338 Win Mag to .338 Lapua velocities. Even at magnum velocities I've found that most .338 bullets open up too slow for deer and normal size hogs.
Things may have changed, but 40 years ago when I did pretty much all of my medium and big game hunting with a .338 Win Mag, I found that for our small East Texas deer standard cup and core bullets had too little expansion and too much penetration. Assuming good lung hits with both, a 130 grain .270 tended to drop deer a lot quicker than a Speer or Hornady 200 grain .338 spitzer at 2950 fps.
DM~
Member
And if the necks aren't so thin to be unsafe, there's an easy fix for the problem.
Pull the center plug out of the sizer die out, chuck it in a drill and spin it holding emery cloth on the expander ball. Take a few thousands off it and the neck tension will increase.
DM
DM~
Member
They have, there's plenty of bullets now that will expand well at loader velocities of the Federal.
DM
Chuck R.
Member
Agree!
As I posted earlier, the manufactures either list or will tell you upon request what their min velocity for expansion is, which is regardless of cartridge.
For instance comparing the .338 WIN Mag and .338 Federal, the difference is about 150 yards because it's about the equivalent with what a .338Federal MV would be at the muzzle:
MV 100 200 300 400 500
.338 Win Mag 200grn: 2930 2718 2515 2321 2137 1960
https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/premium-centerfire-rifle/trophy-bonded-tip/11-P338TT2.html
and for .338Federal:
.338 Federal 200 Grn: MV 100 200 300 400 500
2630 2431 2241 2060 1887 1725
https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/premium-centerfire-rifle/trophy-bonded-tip/11-P338FTT2.html
IF the .338 Winchester is considered to be an adequate 500 yd cartridge with bullet expansion, why wouldn't the .338 Federal be considered at least a 300-350yd cartridge? The Federal guys apparently don't see an issue with expansion because their running the exact same 200 grn Trophy Bonded Tip bullet in both cartridges. Federal lists their minimum expansion velocity for the Trophy Bonded-Tip at 1350Fps:
https://www.federalpremium.com/best-hunting-bullet.html
Again Nolser lists 1800FPS as their minimum for the Accubond and Partition. The .338 federal will impact at less velocity than the .338Win Mag, but still within the bullets parameters to slightly over 400yds, and should impact as if it was a .338Win Mag at 500yds.
CrazyHands13
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I think part of the answer to your question is that the numbers listed by Federal that you quoted are likely with a 24" barrel, and I find 2630 MV optimistic. With a 22" barrel and a 200 gr bullet, the 338 Federal will probably yield average velocities of 2450 fps. I'm guessing most hunters are not going to have a 24" barrel if they're choosing 338 Fed. Under these considerations, this may result in delayed killing beyond 200 yards. Just my take.
OP
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MISportsman
Member
The majority of the shots with this rifle would be within 200 yards anyway. But it is looking more and more like the .358 win may actually be a better option
Chuck R.
Member
Valid point!
So, I re-ran the numbers at 2450FPS. It still retains 1890 FPS at 300 , energy is 1588. So yea an impact.. significant at woods distances? not so much.
CrazyHands13
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Ah yeah, within 200 yards, and if you handload so you can use whatever bullet you like, then the 338 Fed could be a sweet little rifle. But at those ranges MISportsman, I agree, the 358 Win with its increased frontal area gives a big advantage if you're comparing these two cartridges.
another potential advantage, using 357 pistol bullets. You'd have to find what groups and feeds well, but it could signifigantly add to the usable inventory for the gun. Small game, plinking, reduced loads, even large game loads with the heavier 357 bullets like the 180XTP. I was looking to get one myself due to all the shortages occurring and having a lot of 357 bullets on hand. At least you know you can feed yourself with the gun.
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Chuck R.
Member
I'm taking the same approach with my .350RM and just got in a box of 180 XTPs on Saturday. Not for hunting, but for practice. The other .358 bullets that I like, the 225 Partitions and Sierra's are pretty much unobtainable now, but I have managed to get a couple hundred Hornady 200 interlocks, which should at least keep me in venison for a while.
someguy2800
Member
The problem with both the 358 win and the 338 fed is that there are only a handful of bullets for each that are really optimal to take advantage of what they can do. Most of the .358 bullets are designed specifically either for 35 remington or 35 whelen. The 35 remington bullets are pretty soft except for the 180 grain speed hot core, and generally have terrible ballistic coefficients. The heavier bullets intended for 35 whelen and 350 rem mag, are pretty heavy and tough for 358 win velocities. 338 federal has a similar problem with most of the bullets being designed for 338 win mag, but in my opinion it has more and better bullet options than 358 does. Bullets like the 180 and 200 grain accubond, 200 grain speer, and of course the federal fusion bullet that was designed specifically for the 338 fed. Those fusion bullets have been discontinued by the way, so grab them if you see them.
As for the 308 doing everything better than a 358, I would have to staunchly disagree with that. I hunt deer with a 358 yeti using 180 grain speer's at just under 358 win velocities, and the wounding and tissue damage, and resulting blood trail from the 35 cal bullet is far bigger than anything I've ever witnessed from a 308 or 30/06.
As for the 308 doing everything better than a 358, I would have to staunchly disagree with that. I hunt deer with a 358 yeti using 180 grain speer's at just under 358 win velocities, and the wounding and tissue damage, and resulting blood trail from the 35 cal bullet is far bigger than anything I've ever witnessed from a 308 or 30/06.
DM~
Member
In actual use of both on big game, I've not seen ANY advantage of the .358" bullet over a .338" bullet, at least not on big game.
No big advantage at all.
DM
someguy2800
Member
I absolutely love 35 caliber. I have 2 different 35 remington rifles, a 35 remington handgun, a 358 Yeti, and up until very recently a 357 maximum. I have always wanted to add a 358 winchester to the mix, but every time I come around to that line of thinking I go on Midway USA to check what bullets I can actually get to put in my theoretical 358 win, and I quickly forget about the whole idea. For example I just looked now and there is not a single .358 jacketed rifle bullet in stock. You will also notice that with the exception of the 180 gr speer hot core (which is typically in stock once every 2 years), most of the suitable bullets are $60-$100+ per 100. So before you let your heart fall for a 358 win, you may want to secure a supply of bullets first.
adcoch1
Member
338 is awesome if you're running heavily constructed bullets at high speed to big heavy targets, but the 338 federal just didn't get enough traction to draw out the bullet manufacturing support. There are a few decent bullets, but compared to the 30 or 35 cal options, it isn't the best investment caliber wise. If you go for it though, don't overlook casting bullets as an option. If only for cost effective plinking. I cast for 30 and 35 cal, so my bases are covered for anything in those cals.
I tend to agree. Premium bullets just kept getting tougher too. These days if a bullet cant penetrate the animal, the tree behind it, or 5 water jugs and 2 foot of ballistic gel by some youtuber, its declared a failure. We all did a lot of hunting with non premium bullets in the day, personally I prefer them even now.
DM~
Member
I've never needed more than a "few decent bullets" for any rifle I own, so I don't see the problem.
Most of my firearms have never seen more than two different weight/style bullets in its entire life no matter how many are available. If I have one bullet that I like that's all I need and I stick with it.
As for cast bullets, you can cast .338" bullets too...
DM
mcb
Member
Their are several very good bullet for 338 Federal and more coming. With Q pushing the new 8.6 Blackout and 338 Specter langishing in the background there are several really good .338 bullets that work well at these lower velocities. As with many of these things it just takes a bit of time. Every one use to claim there were no .451 bullets that could handle 450 Bushmaster velocities. It was not true back then but selection was limited and with its popularity there are now a huge selection of 450 BM appropriate bullets. So if 8.6 Blackout can make it as a new cartridge it may drag 338 Federal along with it by providing more reasons to make good low velocity .338 bullets. 338 Federal is the Ham'r to 8.6 Blackout.
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Chuck R.
Member
I feel your pain on the availability of .358 bullets, but here's search results on the Hornady 200 Interlocks, that shows pretty good availability and I had 100 of them arrive on SAT with the 100 180 grn XTPs I ordered.
https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/090255235104
Graf's also has the 200 Interlocks in stock (that's where I ordered from):
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/6315
Hornady appears to be the only manufacturer to step up production to meet demand. They're kind of expensive, but when you factor in you're getting 100, it's slightly cheaper than some of the premium bullets, which IMHO are sort of wasted on deer. The .358 rifle bullets should cost at least a little more due to materials. Every review I've read says that the 200 interlock will "get the job done" at least on deer and hogs. And Hornaday loads it in their 35 Whelen and .358Win ammo, which also gets good reviews. It's not got the highest BC going, but for a couple hundred yards it isn't going to matter.
My .350RM drives these at 2830 with IMR4320, and should easily get 2900 with TAC, that gives me 300yds easily with 8" drop from a 200 zero. They shoot "OK" in my M7:
For practice out to 200yds I'm going with the 180 XTPs, Graf's has them for $26.99 per 100, which makes for cheap .350RM plinking ammo.
Honestly right now isn't the best time to find any favorite hunting bullets, not just .358. I've got a bunch of standing notifications for Nosler and Barnes in:
6.5
.270
.308
.358
and I'm not having much joy. Luckily I've got at least 100 of each on hand, but it doesn't allow for a lot for practice. This is where the .358 might excel due to the handgun bullet option.
someguy2800
Member
You better buy a bunch because that's the first time I've seen them in stock for quite awhile! I appreciate hornady makes a good effort to get a run in of their more obscure stuff ever year or so. When demand is high speer and sierra and nosler leave us swinging in the wind while they crank out bullets for factory ammo.
wbm
Member
No.
Chuck R.
Member
You can count on it!
I've set myself up for the .350RM for the long haul since I'm dumping some change into my existing M7:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/show-me-a-carbine-with-real-power-and.910169/
I've now also set myself up to convert belted magnum brass into .350RM, and secured a couple hundred once fired 7mm RM, so the only possible issue now is bullets.
I also agree about the companies that have left us high and dry. Pretty sad really. My absolute favorite bullet for the .350RM is the 225 Nosler Partition. I've been searching for them for at least a year and a half now. I've got 25 loaded rounds and 16 spare bullets against an upcoming elk hunt next year.
Unfortunately these kinds of issues put guys off some pretty unique and effective calibers that are perfect for a particular set of conditions. Before you know it we'll all be shooting .308s and sayin it's "just as good".
And what's the fun in that?
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someguy2800
Member
My mindset exactly. I'm pretty disinterested in anything if you can buy ammo for at walmart. Last year midway usa was closing out 2 338 bullets that Speer had discontinued, the 185 grain fusion bullet that was factory loaded in the 338 fed, and the 225 grain grand slam. I ended up buying 8 boxes of each which will probably be a lifetime supply for my 338 win mag and the 338 federal I havn't even found yet.
And yeah I think its pretty rotten that speer, nosler, and sierra don't seem to care about leaving us handloaders up a creek with no paddle. You would think that preference would go to selling bullets to handloaders considering that is what built those businesses in the first place. I don't even mind so much that they charge us 2-3 times the cost that they sell them to the ammo manufacturers, just let me buy the bullets that I have hundreds of dollars and many hours into load development.
Crosshair
Member
They're not cheap though. Which puts it at a crippling disadvantage vs a 358 Winchester. Some 35 caliber bullets are expensive, but most are quite a bit less than an equivalent 338. Then there are the 35 caliber pistol and cast bullets that are readily available and usable within their limits.
DM~
Member
So, instead of blaming the bullet mfg'ers, why didn't you guys stock up when they were available?
That's what I did, I just don't consider it "their" fault that you were lax. lol
DM
That's what I did, I just don't consider it "their" fault that you were lax. lol
DM
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