How To Find Top Of M1 Garand? For Level-Over-Bore Scope Mounting

good question. You could remove the rear sight guts and try the rear sight ears, but I imagine there's still some variation there. Or you could try to square up on the flat surface below the rear sight guts. Can't use the front sight ears because the barrel can be canted.

If I was doing this, I would mark the rear center of the Ultimak's picrail with a white grease pencil then center the picrail by eyeballing to the iron sights. Or just center the Ultimak within the lower stock so the spaces are equal on both sides.

Also, welcome to THR. I'd also eyeball it. The accuracy of the combination of a Garand and a scout scope isn't going to be a precision instrument of 1MOA accuracy out to 800 yards. Whatever small deviation caused by slight misalignment of scope level to rifle level is going to be inconsequential, IMO.

1K is right, scout set ups aren't intended to be accurate but for quick target acquisition. The only method that I know would be to use a plumbbob to align the scope to the bore center from the front then through the scope. A right angle would work too.

For the capability of the rifle, putting a level on the scope which allows leveling of the reticle and elevation turret will be fine. Use a plumb bob or other trued level vertical or horizontal line, and install the level onto the scope.

Shifts from a reticle not being aligned to the bore are far, far less consequential than shifts from a reticle/turret which is not level.

I put this graphic together many years ago for an advanced hunter education & marksmanship class I was hosting - this uses a simple duplex on a 30-06 fired at 300yrds. The orange dot in the reticle reflects the point of aim on the reticle (target picture) with the red and green lines reflecting the options of level rifle + level scope, level rifle + crooked scope, and finally crooked rifle + level scope, and the green circled X on each target shows the resulting points of impact for each case. Level/level is great, but a crooked rifle with a level scope still only misses by 1/2” at 300yrds, whereas a crooked scope on a level rifle misses by over 4 times as much.

1KPerDay said:

good question. You could remove the rear sight guts and try the rear sight ears, but I imagine there's still some variation there. Or you could try to square up on the flat surface below the rear sight guts. Can't use the front sight ears because the barrel can be canted.

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This. Years ago I was barreling M1 Garands. Brownell's made a tool set to index the barrels. The rear site was removed and the tool slipped over the rear site ears. Then a Starrett bubble level was used. I actually still have the tool but I would need to find the directions as I have forgotten. I do know you removed the rear sight and a flat went over it. Then the level on the flat. You could maybe fabricate something working from the rear sight.

Ron

<EDIT> I found this article where someone explains making their own tool for the rear site. </EDIT>

Tower Squirrel said:

Also yeah, I can only shoot like 1.6-2.0 MOA with it

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That's better than I can do with any of my Garands, so you're doing great!

Tower Squirrel said:

Sadly I don't think there is an easy or straightforward way to do this.

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There is.

Put the optic on ANY rail which you can level (including the rail you have mounted in that photo), use a plumb bob or other trued vertical or horizontal reference, level the reticle, and mount the optic. Put a scope level on the tube while doing so, such you’ll have the ability to confirm level when shooting later.

The induced error from imperfection there will not create any appreciable offset for this firing system - not even detectable. You could use arbor collimators and a bunch of tricks, waste time pulling apart your rear sight assy, etc, and still end up with the same exact groups and effectively identical Group centers at range.

The math supports what Ultimak, myself, and other shooters are offering. Todd Hodnett put out a video a few years ago which offers great detail in why level scope matters much more than having the reticle aligned to the bore or having the rifle perfectly level (and he has several videos out there mentioning more of the same).

Level the reticle to the world, don’t overthink rifle level or radical alignment (radical = line between centers of two circles).

@Tower Squirrel in simple terms what @Varminterror is saying is even if you can't get your rail/scope mount perfectly level with the receiver, as long as the RETICLE of the scope is level/plumb with the vertical and horizontal, your accuracy will effectively be as good as you can get it for your setup. In Varminterror's illustration above, you can see that the bore can be offset from the center/level of the scope, but as long as the scope itself is mounted level in the mount, accuracy will be very minimally impacted by the bore/mount/receiver cant. An extreme example is the M1D sniper rifle or the mounted anti-tank rifles with scopes offset to the left of the receiver. As long as the scope itself is level with the horizon/plumb-vertical, they are acceptably accurate. Varmint LMK if I'm getting anything wrong.

Back in the day I never saw an m1C or D sniper variants. We all carried the original iron sights and all except one guy in company qualified with the iron sights at 600yds on the Dog target. You only need 1-2mop for effective shooting. Ie minute of person
Ps as can be seen from my picture my 1943 Springfield still only has ironsights

Bruce D Pease said:

You only need 1-2mop for effective shooting. Ie minute of person

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This is only two under two conditions:

1) If your only target is people

and

2) You’re content with missing a LOT.

Neither are apt for me, so the claim isn’t true.

I just attach the base and level the cross hairs at the range by loosening the scope rings and turning the scope. I trust my eyes far more than any leveling gadget.

The below stated is factual and I only borrowed it . MY self I place a Bore scope rod with a level in the chamber end ,use rear sight base level accordingly so as to place a quality machinist level on it . I have a stationary cabinet I've also marked using a laser level which is in line with My gun Rifle cradle ( it only slides back and forth also elevation but Never side to side ) so Rifles in cradle machinist levels all jive , I now remove bore rod level and slip laser bore sighter into chamber . Set rings or rail level place scope into bottom rings all leveled . Now mark mounting holes ,remove all levels . I then jig Rifle in the drill press and drill and tap for mount either rings or rail ; IF they're Not already done at factory . Is how I've always done MY scope mounts . I will always check factory with MY set up and adjust accordingly .

By doing the following I'm generally within MOA with scope .

Borrowed ;
We will start with the barrel. It is virtually impossible to drill a hole and rifle a barrel so that the bore is parallel to the outside of the barrel. But no matter because it’s not important. However, there are some anal benchrest shooters who think that it is important and they have their barrels machined outside to be parallel with the bore. This costs a lot of money (hundreds of dollars) and does absolutely nothing for accuracy. Know why? Because the place where the barrel joins the action of the gun determines where the bore “looks,” not the outside of the barrel. The center of the bore can be offset a quarter-inch from the center of the barrel and make zero difference in where the gun shoots.

Now, the place where the barrel is joined to the action does matter. That is what determines where the bore “looks,” relative to the action. So, time invested in getting that right is time well spent.

Being a perfectionist, I'd reference the bottom of the receiver heel, but I am certain that "looks good from here" is close enough for a Garand.

What about this measurement : Would we be in agreement the trigger is bottom dead center ?. IF so a plumb bob with a right angle offset measurement would give center of receiver or bore .

Place Rifle or pistol in a suitable fore and aft suspension cradle ,such a a gun cleaning station vice . Drop plumb bob center line of trigger measure over ,enough to clear stock bolt etc. ,then 90 deg. and slightly above receivers height and again back over with Trigger offset measurement .
Theoretically should be center of bore and center of receiver . Correct ?

I just tried it mocking off of MY Suspension cradle ( I built mine out of klin dried Hardwood Ash base table , with dado'd cross rails of Aussie Buloke ,White Oak sliding and locking front barrel channel or U cradle . The Butt stock modified V cradle is universal stock friendly made from 2" IPE ) . I don't use a vice on the Butt stock as some do but rather a Modified V , with inverted tapered sort of Half V's which are non sliding inserts . Inserts are UHMW with Neoprene polyester edges .
It Grips the Chit out of stock and stationary V but pulls straight up and out when half wedges or V's come out . Kind of a sliding quick lock milling vice principle without clamping .

May wonder why I used the woods I did ?. I wrote one of My college thesis on World Timbers and currently setting atop of perhaps 20K BdFt of precious Exotic hardwoods ,many No longer obtainable . I once was an accomplished General contractor for a # of years and before that ,Purveyed Exotic timber off of #5 continents for then one of the Largest Hardwood concern in the US . That was Way Way back before I earned My degrees and switched vocation too Aerospace Composite Engineering . I've never lost my love or skill of cutting milling joining or finishing of hardwoods . As it carried over very well into composites and fabrication Air work .

I wouldn’t use the trigger as a reference point myself. Lots of guns have offset triggers. Plus stock fit on the garand can jack with the receiver group. There is obviously play enough between the trigger group and the receiver to remove and install it. Your proposed method sounds pretty Rube Goldbergish to me.

1KPerDay said:

I wouldn’t use the trigger as a reference point myself. Lots of guns have offset triggers. Plus stock fit on the garand can jack with the receiver group. There is obviously play enough between the trigger group and the receiver to remove and install it. Your proposed method sounds pretty Rube Goldbergish to me.

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I believe if one investigates a Garand ,you'll find the trigger assembly is dead bottom center of the action Receiver saddle is milled equally so as to center the trigger assembly purposely IMO .