I give up!

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wgf

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I reload 38/357, 9mm, 45 Colt and 45 ACP. I was starting to work up a load for 185 JHP in 45 ACP and I began comparing W231/HP38, AutoComp and Titegroup in the Hogdon reloading manual. The same words and cartridges were used in the the description of each powder, they just mixed up the order a little bit. Accurate, clean, excellent, best, smooth, fast, efficient. I was trying to find some clear objective difference on why I should choose one over another. The data shows results that are so close there is no real difference. Searching threads I can find no real fine tuning difference. I guess I will just close my eyes and pick one.
 
I have Unique and Bullseye also, I have 5 powders that can use all the descriptor words. I have used all and at one time or the other gotten excellent results, but no objective data that tells me why one is better. I am sure there are dozens that I have not tried that will also give good results.
 
I use W231 for my 45acp loads, and it does work well. I also have some VV N320 that I'm using for the same bullets. The VV powder seems to burn a little cleaner, less soot inside and outside of the case, but I can't tell any difference in accuracy yet. But I am still testing.

I can't comment on AutoComp or Titegroup since I haven't used either. I can comment on Longshot in 45acp, it didn't work for me. I may not have gone high enough up the ladder, but I was a new reloader at the time and didn't realize it's a bit slow for that application.

chris
 
I also have a bunch of different powders that I bought to try out. I'll find a good load with a few different bullets and calibers, then run through that bottle. Then on to the next bottle.
I have found a few favorites, so I'll purchase those powders again.

Some powders perform about the same as each other. Off-hand, I can't tell the difference. So, I keep those in mind when things get hard to find on the shelf.
 
Of all the powders I have mentioned the only objective thing I can say is that, my Hornady powder measure doesn’t feed Unique as consistently as the other powders. I am unable to things like xxx powder is better for cast bullets, yyy is better for heavier bullets, zzz is better for plated. They all can be tuned to pretty good, but I never know which will be the most accurate. My two main goals are function correctly in the gun, then accurately.
 
wgf said:
Of all the powders I have mentioned the only objective thing I can say is that, my Hornady powder measure doesn’t feed Unique as consistently as the other powders. I am unable to things like xxx powder is better for cast bullets, yyy is better for heavier bullets, zzz is better for plated. They all can be tuned to pretty good, but I never know which will be the most accurate. My two main goals are function correctly in the gun, then accurately.
Click to expand...

That is the negative trait of Unique. I quit using it several decades ago for it's poor metering. It a forgiving powder to work with though. I switched over to WSF to replace the Unique. I treat it as a ball powder version of Unique.
 
wgf said:
I have Unique and Bullseye also, I have 5 powders that can use all the descriptor words. I have used all and at one time or the other gotten excellent results, but no objective data that tells me why one is better. I am sure there are dozens that I have not tried that will also give good results.
Click to expand...
In this case the best one is the cheapest one. Less cost or less powder or both.
 
Blue68f100 said:
That is the negative trait of Unique. I quit using it several decades ago for it's poor metering. It a forgiving powder to work with though. I switched over to WSF to replace the Unique. I treat it as a ball powder version of Unique.
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Don't know how Aoto-comp would work in 45Colt, never tried that. It favors tight spaces, not going to find that in 45 Colt.
I use a different powder for every weight bullet, let alone every caliber.
Can't help much with this thread, I try to find the most accurate, cleaner burning powder for each instance.
Don't like Unique but will say it's probably best for 45 Colt.
BE 86 is another one that works good for all the calibers you mentioned. On par with Unique but meters much better.
 
I haven't done anything with 9 mm.

Bullseye and W231/HP38 work great for 38/45 target loads. I like WST too. Unique seems to work for everything:) 700X is worth a try if you have any around.

I doubt you get objective data. Say you put your handguns in a ransom rest and the best testing powder happens to; meter poorly, leaves your gun really dirty, and is the most expensive to use. Subjectively you might decide it isn't the best.
 
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For the 'fast' powders mentioned, they are all similar enough to not be all that picky. And for those who prefer a certain powder as 'the' best, go for it. Mostly its the choice of what one can find and what's cheapest.
In many instances, one needs to ascertain loading levels; the amount of powder "A" is likely several tenths of a grain or a whole grain different that powder "B". And of course, there are those pistols that fire the most accurately with xx grains of powder and yy grain bullets.

Most handguns use 'fast' powders for standard or low speed loads. "Slower" powders are best with heavier bullets and higher velocities. Barrel length usually isn't important at all (for pressures or burning rate); but accuracy can be very finicky.
 
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wgf said:
38/357, 9mm, 45 Colt and 45 ACP ... comparing W231/HP38, AutoComp and Titegroup ... Unique and Bullseye ... trying to find some clear objective difference on why I should choose one over another ... I am unable to things like
Click to expand...
  • "xxx powder is better for cast bullets
  • yyy is better for heavier bullets
  • zzz is better for plated.
  • They all can be tuned to pretty good, but I never know which will be the most accurate.
  • My two main goals are function correctly in the gun, then accurately."
I understand the frustration and confusion as I too have experienced similar. :) Perhaps this will help.

Smokeless powders can be described with the following "objective" characteristics in choosing one over another:
  • Type - Flake, ball, flattened ball, extruded
  • Shape - Large, medium, small
  • Coating - Coated (black shiny color), not coated (black, white, beige, pale color, etc.)
  • Burn rate - Fast, moderately fast, moderately slow, slow
  • Burn type - Normal, clean burning, dirty burning, black burn char on case (Titegroup burn)
  • Density - Bulky/fluffy, normal, dense
  • Case fill - High case fill, normal, low case fill
  • Metering - Meters well with around .1 gr variance, meters OK with .1-.2 gr variance, meters poorly with .2+ gr variance
  • Accuracy - I will use accuracy reference of W231/HP-38 based on my 30 years of shooting/match shooting group size comparison
  • Temperature sensitivity - Normal sensitivity (Higher velocity in hotter temperature), higher sensitivity, reverse sensitivity (Higher velocity in colder temperatures) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-7#post-10117881
  • Application - Better for cast lead bullets, better for revolver loads, better for semi-auto loads, better for very light charge bullseye/steel challenge loads, better for lighter target loads, better for lower cost loads, better for accurate match loads, better for higher velocity loads, better for 9mm Major match loads, etc.
From technical article on powder granule shape on burn rate, chamber pressure and velocity - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/powder-shape-and-burn-rate.852012/

"... types of powder grain shapes include extruded, sphere or ball, and flake. The ball grains are typically used in automatic firearms but also in rifles and handguns. The ball grain is less costly to produce, as it is not pressed into shape like cylindrical grains. Flake shaped grains are typically used in shotgun loadings."

index.php

I cluster pistol powders into following "relative burn rate" groupings with W231/HP-38 and Unique/Universal as reference separation between fast/slow powders:

Faster burning pistol powders:​

E3 - Competition - Nitro 100 - N310 - Norma R1

Red Dot/Promo - IMR Red - Clays - 700X - Bullseye - Vectan Ba 10 - IMR Target - TiteGroup - Vectan AS - Am. Select - Solo 1000 - WST - International - Trail Boss - N320 - Sport Pistol - Vectan Ba 9.5 - No. 2 - Clean Shot/Lovex D032.03​

W231/HP-38 - Zip - Green Dot - IMR Green
​

Slower burning pistol powders:​

Unique - Universal - W244 - IMR Unequal - Vectan Ba 9 - BE-86 - Power Pistol - N330 - Vectan A1 - Herco - Vectan A0 - WSF - N340 - 800X​

No. 5 - Auto Pistol/Lovex D036-03 - True Blue - HS6 - AutoComp - Ultimate Pistol/Lovex D036-07 - CFE Pistol - Silhouette - 3N37​

N350 - 3N38 - IMR Blue - W572 - Blue Dot - No. 7 - Major Pistol/Lovex D037-01 - Vectan Ba 7.5 - Pro Reach - Long Shot - 2400​

Enforcer - No. 9 - Heavy Pistol/Lovex D037-02 - 4100 - Steel - Norma R123 - N110 - Lil'Gun - W296/H110 - 300-MP - 11FS - Vectan Ba 6.5 - H4227​

So, expanding on "Powder types/Selection" threads from faster burning to slower burning - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12415502

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Bullseye:
  • Type - Flake
  • Shape - Small
  • Coating - No
  • Burn rate - Fast
  • Burn type - Normal
  • Density - Normal
  • Case fill for load - Low
  • Metering - Meters very well with less than .1 gr variance. .08 gr range with C-H 502 powder measure - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...powder-measure-10-drops.834894/#post-10802441
  • Accuracy - Produces more accurate loads than W231/HP-38
  • Temperature sensitivity - Normal sensitivity
  • Application - Fast burn rate bumps/deforms cast/coated lead bullets better for bullseye match/lighter target loads.
  • Comments - Will produce very accurate 38/357, 9mm, 45 Colt and 45 ACP at lighter target to mid-range velocity loads. "Downloads" well below published start charge (Produces accuracy at lower charges) requiring lighter rate recoil spring for bullseye match semi-auto pistols. At higher load data, produces firm/snappy recoil 9mm/40S&W loads. Produces lower cost loads due to smaller charges used (3.9-4.4 gr for 9mm 124 gr) - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__124_rev1.pdf
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Titegroup:
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W231/HP38:
  • Type - Flattened ball
  • Shape - Small
  • Coating - Yes
  • Burn rate - Moderately fast
  • Burn type - Normal
  • Density - Dense
  • Case fill for load - Low
  • Metering - Meters well with around .1 gr variance. .12 gr range with C-H 502 powder measure.
  • Accuracy - Produces average accuracy loads
  • Temperature sensitivity - Higher (Minor 125 power factor loads developed in the summer may not meet power factor in the winter requiring powder charge increase)
  • Application - General purpose "flexible" pistol powder (especially for 40S&W to produce lighter than/comparable to 9mm recoil training/range/plinking loads).
  • Comments - Will produce accurate 38/357, 9mm, 45 Colt and 45 ACP at lighter target to mid-range velocity loads. Produces less snappy recoil 9mm/40S&W loads than Bullseye/Titegroup. Produces lower cost loads due to smaller charges used (4.0-4.5 gr for 9mm 124 gr) - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__124_rev1.pdf
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"Cleaner burning" formulation Unique max charge of "bulky" 5.8 gr for 124 gr FMJ/TMJ RN compared to BE-86 (Modern Unique that meters well) also at max 5.9 gr charge showing lower case fill due to higher density granules
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Unique:
  • Type - Flake
  • Shape - Large
  • Coating - No
  • Burn rate - Moderately slow
  • Burn type - Dirtier burning, especially with lower charges. Burns "cleaner" with "cleaner burning" formulation.
  • Density - Bulky/fluffy
  • Case fill for load - High
  • Metering - Meters poorly in some powder measures with more than .2 gr variance. .24 gr range with C-H 502 powder measure.
  • Accuracy - Produces less accurate than W231/HP-38 loads. Optimal accuracy produced at high-to-near max load data. During 30 years of shooting, I have not met a single match shooter who used Unique for USPSA.
  • Temperature sensitivity - Normal
  • Application - General purpose pistol powder for higher velocity loads that will readily overflow case with a double charge.
  • Comments - Will produce higher velocity 38/357, 9mm, 45 Colt and 45 ACP loads. Popular with many reloaders due to being usable for most pistol calibers at high to full power loads. Produces higher cost loads due to larger charges used (5.2-5.8 gr for 9mm 124 gr) - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__124_rev1.pdf
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AutoComp:
  • Type - Flatten ball
  • Shape - Small
  • Coating - Yes
  • Burn rate - Moderately slow
  • Burn type - Normal, cleaner at higher charges
  • Density - Dense
  • Case fill for load - Normal
  • Metering - Meters well with around .1 gr variance. .12 gr range with C-H 502 powder measure.
  • Accuracy - Produces less accurate than W231/HP-38 loads at lower charges. Optimal accuracy produced at near max load data.
  • Temperature sensitivity - Normal
  • Application - Developed for match pistols using compensators that require a lot of gas to keep muzzle flat on target - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12415502
wgf said:
I am sure there are dozens that I have not tried that will also give good results.
Click to expand...
index.php


Red Dot/Promo:
 
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I go by pure subjectivity—how my hands feel and how I hit the target and other things that help me but aren’t meaningful to others. I load only 9mm & 45ACP and shoot overwhelmingly 1911s.

For both 9mm & 45ACP, I like W231 & Bullseye equally, BE-86 very close behind, then AA 2 & 5. My notes say AA7 is good but I honestly can’t remember it other than dirty if not a max load.

Sport Pistol brings up the rear (way rear. in fact I have four pounds I’d love to swap for some unique which I’ve never used).

These are the only powders I bought before the shortages and the only ones I’ve ever used.
 
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wgf said:
I reload 38/357, 9mm, 45 Colt and 45 ACP. I was starting to work up a load for 185 JHP in 45 ACP and I began comparing W231/HP38, AutoComp and Titegroup in the Hogdon reloading manual. The same words and cartridges were used in the the description of each powder, they just mixed up the order a little bit. Accurate, clean, excellent, best, smooth, fast, efficient. I was trying to find some clear objective difference on why I should choose one over another. The data shows results that are so close there is no real difference. Searching threads I can find no real fine tuning difference. I guess I will just close my eyes and pick one.
Click to expand...


Welcome to the wonderful world of advertising!

There is a difference in burn speed of these powders you mentioned.

I can load.shoot most anything I want (handgun) with HP 38
 
CQB45ACP said:
wgf said:
I give up!

will just close my eyes and pick one.
Click to expand...
I’m well aware of that, thanks. And you gave it to him so good for you :)
Click to expand...
OP's frustration came across very clearly. I have been there many time with similar/confusing information I had to weed through and asking others produced, "it depends" ... and reasons why were different for different shooters.
 
And since I’ve been admonished for not responding to OP properly, let me say one can have a boatload of objective data that simply isn’t actionable or germane to a user’s needs.
LiveLife said:
OP's frustration came across very clearly. I have been there many time with similar/confusing information I had to weed through and asking others produced, "it depends" ... and reasons why were different for different shooters.
Click to expand...
yeah me too but this is a forum not an “ask livelife” blog/column.

I truly respect and admire the data you post regularly. It’s typically amazing, but quite honestly for me, just an old dog who loads to shoot, it’s just not actionable.

Sorry but you struck a nerve and sorry for again going off topic.

moderator feel free to disappear this post
 
CQB45ACP said:
let me say one can have a boatload of objective data that simply isn’t actionable or germane to a user’s needs.
Click to expand...
Actually, that's true of powder selection for me.

When I first learned to reload for USPSA because most other match shooters told me reloading would shrink my groups even though I already tested various factory ammunition and selected PMC due to smaller groups it produced. And they were correct. My average reloads reduced group size by at least 40% over best of factory ammunition.

But I differed in powder selection. Many recommended Titegroup, some WST and few Clays and others WSF/HS-6 with W231/HP-38 seemingly the default by most. My bullseye match shooting mentor for reloading/match shooting said he used whatever powder/load that produced the smallest groups at 25/50 yards but since I was shooting "action pistol" USPSA, I needed to factor in recoil impulse for fast follow up shots.

So while Bullseye/WST/Titegroup produced smaller groups, W231/HP-38 produced lesser "felt recoil" or recoil snap/muzzle flip to return front sight back on target faster. When I mentioned this, some match shooters looked at me funny. Some nodded and said, "Makes sense". And some admitted they used whatever powder load combination that was the "cheapest" and Titegroup required smaller charges than most other popular powders ... penny pinchers. :p

Same for when I switched match caliber from 45ACP/9mm to 40S&W to better meet major/minor power factors with one caliber. While some still used fast Titegroup for 40S&W saying, "It works" ... I found WSF/HS-6 to produce recoil that was more of a push than snap. And for minor power factor loads or matches that weren't chrono'd, W231/HP-38 produced lighter felt recoil loads for 155/165/180 gr bullets.

So despite all the objective data I just posted, I shot USPSA matches using powders based on my "subjective" feel. :D

CQB45ACP said:
this is a forum not an “ask livelife” blog/column.
Click to expand...
Yes it is. And these days, I refrain from posting on a thread to allow other members to tackle the question/problem posed and post if/when the answers provided weren't directly replying to the OP or going around the circle off topic.

And when I post, I take myself back 30 years just starting out to shoot USPSA and imagine what information I could have benefitted from; hence the 30 years worth of "real world" field/test data that were myth busted because not all information on the "internet" is "accurate". :)
 
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