Curious about the lethality of the 44 Rem Mag and 308 vs the 30-30

Mathematically speaking .30-30 isn't as powerful as .308, but that doesn't remotely mean that it's ineffective against deer. If all I had to hunt with for the rest of my life was a .30-30 I wouldn't feel particularly handicapped. Heck in South Carolina terrain I've NEVER taken a shot that would have been outside of .30-30 range I think the furthest shot I've even taken was around 100 to 125 yards (with a 7mm-08, but I still wouldn't have had any qualm using a .30-30).

If it's in question, call and ask. I seriously, seriously, seriously doubt it wouldn't be considered appropriate. Energy requirements are dumb anyway but there has to be some standard.

brewer12345 said:

You'd be amazed. Most fall just short: 44 Magnum Ballistics - Gunners Den

Last I looked with any serious effort, only leverevolution and a buffalo bore loading made the cutoff.

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I'm not suggesting breaking the law, but I am genuinely curious. How would a warden possibly be able to determine the energy level of a cartridge someone was using? Is that something that's actually ever checked, and if so, how?

bearcreek said:

I'm not suggesting breaking the law, but I am genuinely curious. How would a warden possibly be able to determine the energy level of a cartridge someone was using? Is that something that's actually ever checked, and if so, how?

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They probably have a list of calibers not allowed and actual ballistics wont matter.

hawg said:

They probably have a list of calibers not allowed and actual ballistics wont matter.

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Read Craig C and Brewer12345's posts just above mine a little ways. The CO regs say this, "Must use expanding bullets that weigh a minimum of 70 grains for deer, pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy (at 100 yards) of 1,000 ft.-pounds as rated by manufacturer." My question is, how would a warden go about determining that? They could look it up online if they had service, I suppose, but what if they didn't or what if the person was using reloads?

If .44 mag is on their list of not allowed calibers they're not going to care if your handloads exceed that. I don't live in CO and I don't know the laws there but if they had an energy law here that's how they would be.

About the only thing that has killed more deer in NA than the 30-30 would probably be the .22. Let that soak in.... Shot placement is everything, no matter what you use.

hawg said:

If .44 mag is on their list of not allowed calibers they're not going to care if your handloads exceed that. I don't live in CO and I don't know the laws there but if they had an energy law here that's how they would be.

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In general, states don’t have “allowed caliber lists,” especially which have minimum energy or minimum cartridge length and caliber requirements. Resource officers might have a “cheat sheet” or might simply ask for ammo SKU info to check KE, but the math is pretty straight forward - a 240 clearing 1375fps tops 1000ft.lbs. And clearing 1375fps in a rifle with a 240 is pretty simple in 44mag.

mcb66 said:

About the only thing that has killed more deer in NA than the 30-30 would probably be the .22.

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Do you have any defensible data to back this claim? I’ve heard this said several times over the years, but I find it hard to believe that the dominating significant plurality of deer in the modern era of deer hunting have been illegally harvested.

bearcreek said:

I'm not suggesting breaking the law, but I am genuinely curious. How would a warden possibly be able to determine the energy level of a cartridge someone was using? Is that something that's actually ever checked, and if so, how?

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I have wondered the same. I guess I am not real interested in finding out the hard way, so I have a stash of leverevolution just in case I want to hunt with a 44 rifle because the manufacturer says it makes the cut. As I said previously, I rarely see wardens and when I do it is almost always at waterfowl hunting spots where access is limited and everyone goes in and out of the same parking lot. In a million acres of national forest? Been checked for a small game license once in a decade.

Fwiw, I consider 44 mag out of a rifle to be plenty for deer within reasonable range. The energy requirements Colorado has on the books are very conservative and a bit silly imo.

hawg said:

If .44 mag is on their list of not allowed calibers they're not going to care if your handloads exceed that. I don't live in CO and I don't know the laws there but if they had an energy law here that's how they would be.

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They don't have a list of "allowed calibers". Very few (none that I'm aware of) states have such a thing.

TheFlynn01 said:

the guy behind the counter filled my head with doubt about the dependability of my old inherited 30-30 for clean kills.

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That salesman either has no clue what he's talking about, or was just doing what salesmen do, try to sell stuff. I'm curious if they had a 30-30 on the shelf. I bet if they did they probably wouldn't be deriding it as insufficient.

The 30-30 has worked for years and will continue to work for years. I wouldn't recommend someone go out and buy one today because we have much better options nowadays at better price points, but if you've already got it use it with confidence.

H&Hhunter said:

.....but you’d have to adjust your hunting style to your rifle to make it work for you.

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Big time. 100yds is a long shot where I hunt and most shots are well under that. In Colorado, totally different ballgame. Before COVID happened, I was going to book an elk hunt, either in Colorado or New Mexico. I would 'like' to take one with a flintlock but the .338 is definitely going to be the backup plan.

I'd like to look at this historically. The .30-30 has likely killed more game than all modern cartridges combined. Going back further, the .44-40, the .44 mags grandfather, has likely killed more game than the .30-30, and likely mostly with black powder and soft lead. This is not because they were superior hunting rounds, but because they were the best compromises available. There were more powerful rounds than the .44-40 and .30-30 in their days, but both were widely available (and marketed) in fast handling carbines. The .30-30 with it's new fangled smokeless powder was a quantum leap forward in range and trajectory, but not necessarily in stopping power. The 30-30 and other medium range cartridges, as well as their old and slow forefathers, held their own until after WWII when optics became readily available and affordable and hunting ranges began to outpace the .30-30's ballistics. When iron sights were the norm, the .30-30 was considered ample medicine for moose!

Now fast forward to modern times. .30-30 and .44 rifles still do kill deer. They do it quite efficiently under 100 yards, and in the case of the .30-30 can be pushed a bit farther. When you add a scope and a competent marksman, rounds such as the .308 and others can reach out significantly farther and still make ethical kills. They may be hitting as hard or harder at 300 yards as the .30-30 is at 100. The latest rage is high BC bullet/cartridges such as the 6.5 creedmore. They push a relatively heavy and skinny bullet at a decent velocity. The aerodynamics of such a slug carry energy more efficiently over distance, so they hit harder at distance. I don't want to get into that debate here, but basically your .30-30 is handicapped further at distance due to the blunt bullets that must be used for tubular magazines.

Bottom line: If you wish to go out and kill a deer at relatively short range, your favorite Win 94 will absolutely do the job. A .308 will do it with a little more margin for error...it brings a bit more kinetic energy to the table, and retains energy better at distance due to the "pointy" bullets used.

The 30-30 and .44 are excellent choices for woods guns. If you're going to hunt across soybean fields with one just stay at home.

I’ve taken a few deer with my marlin in .44mag. It might be my favorite deer rifle if I know 100% that shots will be 75 yards or less. Light, low recoil, hits like a sledgehammer. Mine isn’t accurate enough for me at 100 yards and beyond. Maybe because it’s a Remlin. Maybe because for some unfathomable reason SAAMI specs a larger bore diameter for .44 rifles than for handguns so most .44 bullets on the market are undersized for rifle. Maybe I just haven’t found a load it likes. That said, even if it were accurate beyond 100 yards, it starts dropping like a rock at 150 yards and beyond. It’ll kill a deer at that range, but you better know your distance to target and have you drop table memorized.

Given those three choices, I’d go .44 if all shots would be <100 yards; .30-30 if some shots might be up to 200 yards; and .308 if shots beyond 150 yards were likely.

Are you willing to accept an empty tag? Or seeing a nice buck just outside of shooting distance?
If you are. The 30-30 is fine.
My grandfather grew up in Maine. He killed moose with his 30-30. After he retired from the Army. He moved to The Springs. After his first year of hunting Colorado he bought a 270.

Bfh_auto said:

Are you willing to accept an empty tag? Or seeing a nice buck just outside of shooting distance?
If you are. The 30-30 is fine.
My grandfather grew up in Maine. He killed moose with his 30-30. After he retired from the Army. He moved to The Springs. After his first year of hunting Colorado he bought a 270.

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You should have grown up in a slug only state... 30-30 would have tripled if not quadrupled my effective range...

mcb said:

You should have grown up in a slug only state... 30-30 would have tripled if not quadrupled my effective range...

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I hunted the swamps in the UP of Michigan. I used buckshot and slugs. Then I started using an SKS.

I live in Colorado but don't hunt. I do work with deer hunters and they take deer with shots from 200-400 yards with 308, 7mm mag, 6.5cm etc. Coming from the Midwest I was surprised at the distance. I don't think OP's salesman is wrong for Colorado.

I haven't been to Colorado but I've been to every state around it. Range becomes a serious factor anywhere in the west. 100yds seems like a long shot in the eastern hardwoods. Big difference when you can see for miles around. At least in the west, you 'may' have the option of closing the distance. Around here, it's hard enough to clear around your chair to keep from crunching leaves with every move. Gotta at least be able to get into my jerky bag.

Dang! I've been in a slug/ml/handgun state all my life. Finally, starting in January, I'll be able to use, legally, a real rifle, albeit a single shot and with a straight wall cartridge. My 30-30_ 308, 30-40, and 7/7, and 30-06 will sit in the safe. Now, decision time: Model 92 357, 94 44, 336 444, or Rio Grande 45-70. Pull mag spring and follower and plug to as status, or use my Handi 44 or Henry 357.
A great place to be. My land, 125 is long.

I've killed a lot of bid midwestern deer with a 44 mag revolver.

It works very well,.....if you can do your part