Proposing new bullet for ROA (and Italian clones 44 cal.)

Onty

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Oct 25, 2003
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We had discussion here https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/proposal-for-bullet-45-250-hb.884816/ about proposal for a new bullet for Ruger Old Army. Since noted thread is not active any more, I am opening a new one. I was discussing with MP-Molds about making a prototype, however, they were very busy trying to catch up with demand. Hopefully, there is a possibility now to go ahead with this project.

Anyhow, here is the latest version of the bullet. As you could see, this is hollow base version, with rebated base dia for easier loading.

hR0UwBA.png

Also, I checked chambers on cylinder on my Ruger Old Army. Using vernier (caliper) I am getting .454". On Uberti 1858 Target I am getting .450-.451". I would appreciate if you take few minutes and measure chambers on your revolvers. Please specify model and diameters.you are getting and let me know what do you think about design.

Thanks!
 
I have (2) relatively new Cimmaron Uberti 1858 Remington NMA - cylinder chambers measure out to .447 , I have been using .454 round balls. I notice the design of your bullets appears to provide lube grooves , if I ran these through my lubrisizer with a .454 sizing die which would fill the grooves with BP lube could this eliminate having to lube over top of the bullet?

Thanks, Retreever
 
I will lube my bullets using pan. As for running this type of bullet through .454 sizing die, I am not sure how it will work for smaller dia. I would expect that some lube will leak at the bottom of the bullet.
 
I have (2) relatively new Cimmaron Uberti 1858 Remington NMA - cylinder chambers measure out to .447 , I have been using .454 round balls. I notice the design of your bullets appears to provide lube grooves , if I ran these through my lubrisizer with a .454 sizing die which would fill the grooves with BP lube could this eliminate having to lube over top of the bullet?

Thanks, Retreever

His bullets measure .451 at the base. I think you're going to have a hard time loading them in .447 chambers. If you run them through a .454 die all you're going to trim is the ogive and top driving band.
 
His bullets measure .451 at the base. I think you're going to have a hard time loading them in .447 chambers. If you run them through a .454 die all you're going to trim is the ogive and top driving band.
Please notice that we are talking about two different bullets; one is for Ruger Old Army, that one has a base dia .451". Second one, with dimensions in brackets, has a base dia .448". However, MP-Molds could make smaller or larger dia bullets, but the difference between larger and smaller dia will be the same, .006". In Retreever's case, he can order smaller dia .445", and larger dia will be .451".

Also, we can discuss what would be optimum difference between larger and smaller dia. If have consensus, that difference could be .005", and adjust smaller dia to be .002" less than chamber dia. We can ask for following combination:

Ruger Old Army: .457", .452"
Italian clones 1st version: .453", .448"
Italian clones 2nd version: .450", .445"
 
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I have doubts about the expanding skirt.

1 Can it expand enough to bridge the difference between chamber diameter and barrel diameter?

2 Will it remain intact while moving unsupported through the cylender gap and forcing cone and being pushed outward by gas pressure.

I have seen no period examples of Minie style pistol bullets even though they were common in rifles. Is there a reason for this?

Ironhand
 
Expanding skirt is direct copy of .455 Webley bullet, that was initially designed for Mk I version ammo with black powder. As a matter of fact, I did reverse engineering of .455 Webley https://www.mp-molds.com/product/455-webley-mk2-hollow-base-4-cavity-mold/ from old drawings. In 38 Special revolvers WC hollow base bullet is considered as the top choice for competition. Also, some bullets for 45 Colt are/where hollow base https://handloadermagazine.halflyte.com/2021/11/21/utility-loads/ . In that respect, I would expect that hollow base bullet would work fine, or better than solid base bullets, in Ruger Old Army and various clones of Colt and Remington revolvers.

They key factor for hollow base bullets is the SOFT lead. Wheel weight lead is to hard and hollow base wouldn't expand reliably in revolvers using black powder.
 
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Latest versions:

QhjyQ8N.jpg
Please be aware these are still proposals. I will have to get approval from MP-Molds before these molds are officially offered.
 
Expanding skirt is direct copy of .455 Webley bullet, that was initially designed for Mk I version ammo with black powder. As a matter of fact, I did reverse engineering of .455 Webley https://www.mp-molds.com/product/455-webley-mk2-hollow-base-4-cavity-mold/ from old drawings. In 38 Special revolvers WC hollow base bullet is considered as the top choice for competition. Also, some bullets for 45 Colt are/where hollow base https://handloadermagazine.halflyte.com/2021/11/21/utility-loads/ . In that respect, I would expect that hollow base bullet would work fine, or better than solid base bullets, in Ruger Old Army and various clones of Colt and Remington revolvers.

They key factor for hollow base bullets is the SOFT lead. Wheel weight lead is to hard and hollow base wouldn't expand reliably in revolvers using black powder.

Kool, thanks for the info :)

IronHand
 
I’m not sure I would go with the hollow base… here are a few pictures of the Kerr bullet. You’ll notice the under sized base expands nicely upon firing and engages the rifling. So far, accuracy is very good, rivaling round ball in the good guns.

F13C516C-BBEA-480C-AC7D-2A9D8517F485.jpeg 433CBA4E-E42A-4BB0-8D06-92CF34C2F391.jpeg F8428C55-E3AF-4F82-BAB5-5F062C2265A2.jpeg 6F129F64-67D7-407C-8AA5-1CD656CA0E35.jpeg

You’ll notice that the ram on the Pietta New Army flattened the pointed profile during loading.

B6A5A797-4759-4235-AAFC-7229E4C5B18A.jpeg
 
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I also have a mold for this bullet. It’s a good shooter too, allowing heavy charges in the Old Armies and very good accuracy as well.

My next mold will be a flat nose design based on the Kerr. I’m trying 30:1 lead alloy for the Kerr as I use it in the 245C and it’s working just fine. A great hunting bullet for blackpowder revolver aficionados…

81FAADDD-F7DB-4AE8-ABA4-C97665BF3C09.jpeg
 
I also have a mold for this bullet. It’s a good shooter too, allowing heavy charges in the Old Armies and very good accuracy as well.

My next mold will be a flat nose design based on the Kerr. I’m trying 30:1 lead alloy for the Kerr as I use it in the 245C and it’s working just fine. A great hunting bullet for blackpowder revolver aficionados…

View attachment 1106190

What kind of charge are you able to squeeze under that kerr?
 

Link isn't working on my side, whatever is the problem. I guess you are talking about this bullet:

DD-PUK-ROA-II-1045_WEB_PROF.jpg
DD-ROA FLAT Big Lube®LLC 210 grain six cavity mold for ROA, Rem. 58 (NOTE: assuming 1858) & other Cap & Ball revolvers

Yes, I was thinking about it. However, I would like to duplicate, or came close to original 45 Colt load 255 grains bullet at (least) 900 fps. I am aware of limited capacity of Ruger Old Army cylinder, but hope to get that velocity using Triple 7.

When I proposed this bullet, I had in sight Kaido Ojamaa 255 bullet for Ruger Old Army (see videos bellow):



First, I couldn't find Kaido Ojamaa bullet mold. Apparently, it was made by Lee several years ago. Second, I am located in Europe, so to get something related to shooting from USA could be quite a hassle, many companies flatly refuse to sell anything outside USA. However, I am in contact with MP-Molds https://www.mp-molds.com , they make top quality molds, and are just couple hours from my home.

Another issue is bullet base rebated dia for easier reloading. Some complained that all existing bullets have very short rebated dia, and that doesn't help much in loading process, so they suggested longer rebated dia section. I looked at that proposal, but I didn't like to have too much of the undersized bullet in cylinder chamber. That certainly wouldn't help accuracy and I came to conclusion that hollow base would be way to go. I cannot say that for sure, the only way is to make prototype and test it.
 
What kind of charge are you able to squeeze under that kerr?
In the Old Army I use a 40 grain charge, 30 in the 1860. I imagine your 1858’s will hold 35 or so… this is Swiss 3f powder. I’ve also used Triple 7. Powder charges of T7 are reduced by 5 grains because it doesn’t work well with compression. Swiss will handle all the compression you can muster.
 
My new 1860 has a .446 chamber and .450 barrel. Also if the bullet didn't have a rebated base and fairly long one ,I could not load it with the opening of the loading port. The hollow base would work nicely for this. Back in the day many revolvers had hollow base slugs.
 
I’m not sure I would go with the hollow base… here are a few pictures of the Kerr bullet. You’ll notice the under sized base expands nicely upon firing and engages the rifling. So far, accuracy is very good, rivaling round ball in the good guns.
Re:

index.php


Are we talking about hollow base bullets?

My new 1860 has a .446 chamber and .450 barrel. Also if the bullet didn't have a rebated base and fairly long one ,I could not load it with the opening of the loading port. The hollow base would work nicely for this. Back in the day many revolvers had hollow base slugs.
I appreciate your time to check chambers. I am rethinking about making difference . 006" between nominal dia and rebated dia on bullets. I would like to hear others what they suggest about nominal bullet dia and rebated expanding skirt dia.
 
Maybe you are not but Onty is. Any bullet fired from my revolver will exit the chambers at a .446 dia. It would need to fatten up to better fit the barrel. A hollow base would assist with that.
 
They use hollow base bullets in .36 revolvers with conversion cylinders with good results. That's going from .357 to .375.
 
Re:

index.php


Are we talking about hollow base bullets?


I appreciate your time to check chambers. I am rethinking about making difference . 006" between nominal dia and rebated dia on bullets. I would like to hear others what they suggest about nominal bullet dia and rebated expanding skirt dia.


These are not hollow based bullets. The rebated base expands under pressure from the powder charge behind it. The hollow base isn’t necessary.

In @Black Jack Shellac case his chambers are significantly under bore size and a hollow base may provide an imperfect solution. (Ask anyone who’s using 38 special hollow base wadcutter ammunition in .36 caliber conversion revolvers.) a far better solution is to ream the chambers to at least .001” larger than groove diameter and use an appropriate bullet or ball. It’s cheap and easy. Molds for such bullets are also cheaper (and easier to use) than those for hollow based bullets.. your mileage may vary.
 
These are not hollow based bullets. The rebated base expands under pressure from the powder charge behind it. The hollow base isn’t necessary.

In @Black Jack Shellac case his chambers are significantly under bore size and a hollow base may provide an imperfect solution. (Ask anyone who’s using 38 special hollow base wadcutter ammunition in .36 caliber conversion revolvers.) a far better solution is to ream the chambers to at least .001” larger than groove diameter and use an appropriate bullet or ball. It’s cheap and easy. Molds for such bullets are also cheaper (and easier to use) than those for hollow based bullets.. your mileage may vary.

It does seem to me that the hollow base is of value only if the chambers and bore are miss-matched. The disadvantage I see with the hollow base is that it makes for a longer bullet, which will reduce the powder charge. Having the chambers reamed/sized to the proper diameter would be a better solution. And, it should improve accuracy more than an undersized hollow base bullet would.
 
It does seem to me that the hollow base is of value only if the chambers and bore are miss-matched. The disadvantage I see with the hollow base is that it makes for a longer bullet, which will reduce the powder charge. Having the chambers reamed/sized to the proper diameter would be a better solution. And, it should improve accuracy more than an undersized hollow base bullet would.
‘Zackly… I don’t play cowboy games but I think they are the largest volume users of hollow base bullets. (in the .38 special conversions mostly) for a close range speed game accuracy isn’t really that important but for everyone else it should be.


“You can’t hurt ‘em if you don’t hit ‘em.” Chesty Puller
 
These are not hollow based bullets. The rebated base expands under pressure from the powder charge behind it. The hollow base isn’t necessary.

In @Black Jack Shellac case his chambers are significantly under bore size and a hollow base may provide an imperfect solution. (Ask anyone who’s using 38 special hollow base wadcutter ammunition in .36 caliber conversion revolvers.) a far better solution is to ream the chambers to at least .001” larger than groove diameter and use an appropriate bullet or ball. It’s cheap and easy. Molds for such bullets are also cheaper (and easier to use) than those for hollow based bullets.. your mileage may vary.
As for the relationship between cylinder chamber dia and barrel groove dia, Ruger Old Army looks good. Chambers are .002-003" above barrel groove dia. Problems are those Italian clones with undersized cylinder chambers.

Regarding cylinder chamber reaming to achieve larger dia than barrel groove bore dia, that is a big issue for many of us. I've heard about gentleman boring undersized cylinders for 45 Colt SA Ruger revolvers, but seems to me that he closed business. Apparently, he had enough dealing with some folks. As for me, and other folks in my area with Italian clones, that is basically mission impossible. First, we have to get proper reamer. Second, it has to be done on milling machine, with reamer chucked in the collet, while cylinder chamber is properly centered. Third, it should be done by somebody who knows what he is doing. Of all smiths I know here, none is qualified to do this, cylinder will have to be done in Austria. If cylinder is ruined, we will have a big problem, because to get another one fitted, revolver has to be send to Italy, assuming Uberti and Pietta are willing to take it. Considering all that, hollow base bullet mold looks to me as a better solution, despite more expensive and more complex mold and casting procedure.

As for using 38 Special with hollow base bullet in 36 revolver, well, we are talking about .357-.358" bullet in .375 barrel, and .017-.018" difference in diameters. Too much for any reasonable accuracy, even using pure lead. Loading just lead bullets in 36 revolver, a tool to bump 38 bullet on appropriate dia for 36 cylinder, with all grease grooves and hollow base filled with lube to prevent bullet collapsing. Never done it, but some shooters told me it worked for them, albeit with solid base bullets, no hollow base.

It does seem to me that the hollow base is of value only if the chambers and bore are miss-matched. The disadvantage I see with the hollow base is that it makes for a longer bullet, which will reduce the powder charge. Having the chambers reamed/sized to the proper diameter would be a better solution. And, it should improve accuracy more than an undersized hollow base bullet would.
For the same bullet weight and nose shape, powder charge will not be reduced with hollow base bullet. The trick is when bullet is in the chamber, for the final ramming, revolver should be pointed down, and powder will fill hollow base cavity. Air should go upward and exit through the nipple.
 
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