Compliance Is Certainly A Gamble

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When someone orders you to your knees at gunpoint, it's time to take action. If an armed robber starts herding everyone in the store into the back, it's time to take action. While I stand by my earlier statement that drawing on a drawn gun is often a suicidal act, there is a time when taking some type of action is your only chance. We teach soldiers to attack into the ambush if caught in the kill zone of a near ambush. It's literally the only chance. It might be a very slight chance, but it's a chance.
 
If I am victimized by an armed robber, I have three objectives, in order of importance:
  1. Avoid death or serious injury
  2. Do not harm an innocent
  3. Stay clear of the criminal justice system
Whether to comply or not will be fact dependent. Compliance may not suffice. Drawing a gun and shooting may not meet either of the first two of those objectives, and it will preclude achieivng the third.

It''s a judgment call.
 
I really truly, honest to God, hope some of you never have to go through this. Well, ALL of you but some more than others.

It doesn't sound like some of you would fare very well. When a guns pointed at your face its not the time to get stuck in a OODA Loop or be thinking about anything other than what you can do to possibly avoid being killed.

The video I posted simply mentioned looking for opportunities, and the manner in which you can do so, to look for cues of when there might be an opportune moment to defend yourself should you be caught in such a situation.

Instead of discussion about that we have the usual folks mentioning how you should think about any number of things that don't directly involve you surviving the encounter. Its all "Let's think about XYZ while I get shot in the face".

No disrespect but some of you folks ought not even bother carrying a gun because it doesn't sound like it would do you any good in ANY circumstance, because you'd be too busy going over things in your head for it to be of any use.
 
No disrespect but some of you folks ought not even bother carrying a gun because it doesn't sound like it would do you any good in ANY circumstance, because you'd be too busy going over things in your head for it to be of any use.
What on Earth has led you to that idea?
 
No disrespect but some of you folks ought not even bother carrying a gun because it doesn't sound like it would do you any good in ANY circumstance, because you'd be too busy going over things in your head for it to be of any use.

You obviously don’t understand the purpose of this forum or have a very good grasp of training concepts and how one learns.

Did you ever think that here and now is when you think and talk about those other things so that they don’t cloud your judgement and slow you down if you are faced with someone pointing a gun at you?

One self training method I used that served me well in 28 years in the Infantry and 20 years in law enforcement was to “wargame” various scenarios in my mind. Discussions like this are similar to that and often a better training activity because someone will likely bring up something you wouldn’t think of on your own.

No two situations are alike, there is no “one size fits all” approach to any of these situations.

For example, if your attacker tells you to get on your knees, going hand to hand might be the better option then drawing your own gun from concealment. Running away or charging the attacker might be the better response, it’s all going to depend on the situation.

In my opinion if it seems as if your about to be executed your best option is to attack. However, if you aren’t in that position, it’s statistically best to comply and hand over your wallet, phone etc. You don’t want to end up like my dad’s co-worker, dead over a hundred or so dollars in change.

It’s all a gamble. You can puff out your chest and say; “I refuse to be a victim” and get into a quick draw contest with the guy who already has his gun pointed at you and probably be seriously injured at best or dead at the worst or you can hand over your wallet and phone and watch your attacker run away.

The hard part is being able to tell if the guy holding you at gun point intends to kill you or just rob you. There are indicators that have been identified in past incidents, herding the victims into the back, ordering the victim to his knees or to turn around but those are not definitive.

In the end you are the person who has to make that decision and I guarantee you the decision will be easier to make if you’ve thought about XYZ before it was time to make that decision.

If you come here looking for everyone to confirm you made the right decision you’re in the wrong place. In this forum you most likely won’t get a lot of electronic pats on the back for your post, you’re going to get a lot of other takes on it and you should be happy that you do because that’s how we learn.
 
My sense is if one finds himself/herself being ordered to kneel down by a criminal gunman and even contemplates for a brief second "what will a jury think of how I defend myself" there is too much brain clutter.

That kind of decision should already be sorted by now, way far in advance of such situation presenting itself.
 
My sense is if one finds himself/herself being ordered to kneel down by a criminal gunman and even contemplates for a brief second "what will a jury think of how I defend myself" there is too much brain clutter.
That applies to every potential use of force encounter.

That kind of decision should already be sorted by now, way far in advance of such situation presenting itself.
Yep. Should be "programmed". Do what is necessary timely, and do no more.

Security camera footage in the last couple of years has shown an alarming number of people who shoot when it is no longer justified. The perp is driving away with the car, walking out the door, running away, has already made it to the curb, etc. or there is an excessive time interval before the last shot. The charging authority may or may not prosecute, and we have seen life sentences result.

It is not "what will a jury think"--it's what will the evidence show, and how will the judge instruct the jury regarding the law.
 
So, the OP has said that he posted this video to start a discussion about opportunities to counter ambush during armed robberies like the one in the video. And techniques to use.

The video I posted simply mentioned looking for opportunities, and the manner in which you can do so, to look for cues of when there might be an opportune moment to defend yourself should you be caught in such a situation.

We've discussed some possibilities above.

Are there more ways to
...shift those odds a bit more to your own side...
, or other "opportune moments to defend yourself" to look for? Are there scenarios and tactics that you have
“wargame[d]”
beyond those already discussed?


Here are a couple that come to mind:

If an armed robber demands your wallet, phone, or keys, nervously fumbling with and dropping them while obviously complying (oh, I'm so sorry, I'm so nervous!) might distract the BG enough for you to initiate a counter-ambush.

Or fumble taking cash out of your pocket or wallet and allowing it to scatter out a little bit.

Instead of letting your phone drop right in front of the BG, nudge it just a little to one side, a foot or two away from him. Maybe to his gun side?

At short range, train to move quickly to one side or the other (ideally toward cover?) while drawing. A moving target is harder for the BG to hit.

When a BG takes the gun from one hand and puts it in the opposite hand or puts his gun down completely (say, to pick up money), this is a hard go signal. Observing malfunctions, slide locks, mags falling out, etc., are also go signals.

Coordinate beforehand with loved ones to fall to the ground if being held as a hostage while standing. Agree on a phrase, word or signal that triggers this. Decide on the conditions in which you will consider it (e.g. defender has gun drawn and on target, BG's gun is not pointed at hostage). Nobody wants to put a bullet right past a loved one's ear if they don't have to.

Where do you train to focus your attention during an armed robbery? On the BG's gun? His trigger finger? His eyes? His head?

Our brains react more slowly to external stimuli when we are talking. Especially when we're answering a question. How do you train to get a BG talking? What questions do you ask?

How do you practice hiding competence behind a facade of compliance or terror?

How do you practice to disguise your draw?


What have you wargamed? In your experience, which of these works? Or doesn't work? What have you been trained to do?
 
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Luzyfuerza's excellent post addresses very well how one might try a counter ambush. It is consistent with, and as I recall, expands upon, what Massad Ayoob has said.

I would no doubt look for the opportunity, but I would be unlikely to try shooting unless my judgement at the time indicated the risk of compliance to be higher.

In most robberies, including car-jackings, we see the perp departing without shooting. If he sees the victim reaching for a weapon, we can surely expect him to shoot when he might not have done so but for the attempted resistance. It's a gamble either way.

It would be naive to think that the question is one of whether or not the defender can expect to get off a shot first. The question is whetter the defender can prevent the robber from shooting. That's not the same thing.
 
Luzyfuerza's excellent post addresses very well how one might try a counter ambush. It is consistent with, and as I recall, expands upon, what Massad Ayoob has said.

I would no doubt look for the opportunity, but I would be unlikely to try shooting unless my judgement at the time indicated the risk of compliance to be higher.

In most robberies, including car-jackings, we see the perp departing without shooting. If he sees the victim reaching for a weapon, we can surely expect him to shoot when he might not have done so but for the attempted resistance. It's a gamble either way.

It would be naive to think that the question is one of whether or not the defender can expect to get off a shot first. The question is whetter the defender can prevent the robber from shooting. That's not the same thing.
It seems as of late that robbers plan to shoot https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/new...the-city-at-least-12-reported-monday-morning/
 
Idk I'm from Texas, the southern border to be exact. Criminals down there are of a different breed (you ever see 5 bodies hanging from a bridge with their arms chopped off? Only a few miles from your house?) I'm of the mindset that if you pull a gun on me, you intend to take my life. I intend to defend my life, which means taking yours as quickly as possible.
 
Good way to get shot.

That assumption is the basis for the justification of deadly force.

It means avoiding getting killed.
Yes, I assume that if I gun is being pulled on me, I'm about to be shot. And yes I plan to avoid being killed, which means killing my attacker. I'd rather be fighting for my life in a hospital than dead on the street. Could I have possibly complied, handed over my goods, and the perp run away? Sure..but I'm not going to assume that.
 
How fast can you draw from concealment and make good hits?
I practice for the most likely scenario, which means less than ten yards. I'm quite confident at those distances. My place of work would be the highest chance of needing to defend myself, and that distance would be much like the scenario in question...over the counter. I had to fight off this drugged up woman one time haha she was planning to stab me with a broken bottle, so I'm confident in my ability to assess the risk of a situation..nobody was hurt that night, and I hope that girl is okay, she was just a young college kid. I also know that I've had customers leave my store, and then go shoot at somebody behind the building less than 5 minutes later. I'm not rolling the dice on my life.
 
I wouldn't shoot to maim, I wouldn't shoot to stop (whatever that means, how many videos have we seen of people dropping then getting back up), I would shoot to kill. That's a 100% stop for sure. I know that opinion isn't really shared anymore; heck even the death penalty is being criticized, but that's just my opinion. I hope I don't come off as being disrespectful, I just yearn for heated debate sometimes
 
So, the OP has said that he posted this video to start a discussion about opportunities to counter ambush during armed robberies like the one in the video. And techniques to use.



We've discussed some possibilities above.

Are there more ways to , or other "opportune moments to defend yourself" to look for? Are there scenarios and tactics that you have beyond those already discussed?


Here are a couple that come to mind:

If an armed robber demands your wallet, phone, or keys, nervously fumbling with and dropping them while obviously complying (oh, I'm so sorry, I'm so nervous!) might distract the BG enough for you to initiate a counter-ambush.

Or fumble taking cash out of your pocket or wallet and allowing it to scatter out a little bit.

Instead of letting your phone drop right in front of the BG, nudge it just a little to one side, a foot or two away from him. Maybe to his gun side?

At short range, train to move quickly to one side or the other (ideally toward cover?) while drawing. A moving target is harder for the BG to hit.

When a BG takes the gun from one hand and puts it in the opposite hand or puts his gun down completely (say, to pick up money), this is a hard go signal. Observing malfunctions, slide locks, mags falling out, etc., are also go signals.

Coordinate beforehand with loved ones to fall to the ground if being held as a hostage while standing. Agree on a phrase, word or signal that triggers this. Decide on the conditions in which you will consider it (e.g. defender has gun drawn and on target, BG's gun is not pointed at hostage). Nobody wants to put a bullet right past a loved one's ear if they don't have to.

Where do you train to focus your attention during an armed robbery? On the BG's gun? His trigger finger? His eyes? His head?

Our brains react more slowly to external stimuli when we are talking. Especially when we're answering a question. How do you train to get a BG talking? What questions do you ask?

How do you practice hiding competence behind a facade of compliance or terror?

How do you practice to disguise your draw?


What have you wargamed? In your experience, which of these works? Or doesn't work? What have you been trained to do?



Great response.

Part of what you're talking about is "making" an opportunity versus "looking" for an opportunity as the OP video suggests. And thats absolutely a worthwhile thing. Although I think you should be doing both.

As for drawing or going HTH thats completely dependent on the situation. I can draw from concealment and get COM shots on target at 12-15yds in 1.5 - 2 seconds. At the distance in the video I imagine it would be faster. Again, you're looking for cues for a 1-2 second opening, of which there where a couple in the OP video.

A good example of when to possibly go HTH would be when the attacker has you partially on the ground and is within arms length towards the end of the video in the OP. At that point you're going for broke. But ultimately the goal is to not let it get to that point. There were several missed opportunities while the attacker was still in front of the counter, which is what I initially intended this thread to focus on.

As far as "training" with family, I don't know your situation but I don't live with my almost 80yo parents so there's no "training" them. And all the talking in the world isn't going to amount to a hill of beans in a situation like the OP. Likewise for my sister or niece.

Myself and my wife sure we have a gameplan.
 
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