Putting to rest the myth of the "Cowboy Carry": Colt + S&W recommended carry w/all 6 chambers loaded

desmobob said:

The one and only Colt SAA I purchased (new) came out of the box with a broken safety notch!
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First while your depictions of what was printed might be right, they do not mean that it was ever a safe practice.

You see, the firing pin on the hammer of an original and clone without a transfer bar or rebound lever protrudes from the face of the recoil shield far enough that any sharp blow howsoever slight will set the cartridge under the hammer off and right down one's leg.

The only way for it to be safe is to once fully loaded and the hammer lowered, to raise the hammer to the very first notch (safety cock).

silicosys4 said:

I haven't broken the sear or safety notch, but I have demonstrated to people that a 3 screw ruger with the hammer down on a live round will fire from a light tap to the back of the hammer with a short length of dowel.
A surprisingly light tap.

Read "the jungle" if you think that period was one of concern for consumer safety.

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That is the most irresponsible post I think I've ever read on this forum!!! Just because you hate Rugers is no reason to spread b.s.!!!!
The 3 screw Ruger has a safety (1/4 cock) notch and it won't break with a "surprisingly light" tap!!! You either broke yours or bought a broken revolver!!!
Mike

45 Dragoon said:

That is the most irresponsible post I think I've ever read on this forum!!! Just because you hate Rugers is no reason to spread b.s.!!!!
The 3 screw Ruger has a safety (1/4 cock) notch and it won't break with a "surprisingly light" tap!!! You either broke yours or bought a broken revolver!!!
Mike

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I think you misunderstood his post.

silicosys4 said:

I haven't broken the sear or safety notch, but I have demonstrated to people that a 3 screw ruger with the hammer down on a live round will fire from a light tap to the back of the hammer with a short length of dowel.
A surprisingly light tap.

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He said with the hammer down, not with the hammer on the 'safety cock' notch. To me, hammer down means all the way down, not on the 'safety cock' notch. Rugers have always had frame mounted firing pins, and with one of the old Three Screw Rugers, if the hammer is all the way down, the hammer will be pressing the frame mounted firing pin against the primer of a cartridge under the hammer. I just took out one of my Three Screw Rugers and verified this fact by very carefully lowering the hammer on a live round under the hammer. I have no doubt a relatively light blow to the hammer in this condition could indeed ignite a primer. Will have to try it at the range sometime, with primed empty cases.

Yes, the old Three Screw Rugers did indeed have a 'safety cock' notch on the hammer, but I would not trust one if the revolver were dropped on the hammer any more than I would with a Colt.

I am reposting the photos that I posted umpteeen pages ago showing the 'safety cock' notch and sear on the lock parts of a Colt and the lock parts of a Three Screw Ruger.

DJ, (hey !!) You're correct, I just think it's amazing that anyone would think it's "OK" to rest a hammer (firing pin "mounted" or "in frame" that would be on a primer) on a live round !!! I (and everyone that read this) I'm a little dumber for posting/reading this!! Should have just bypassed this thread.

I thought it was about the " safety" features but when it concerns "common" sense, it's anybody's guess!!! Sorry to interrupt the flow guys !!!

Mike

With some of the early S&W revolvers there was no choice. If you wanted a round in the chamber, there was no 'safety cock' notch to back the hammer off to.

All the old S&W Tip Up revolvers, which fired 22 and 32 caliber rimfire ammo were like this.

These revolvers had no 'safety cock notch' or whatever one wants to call it. The hammers were either fully cocked, or all the way down.

If you wanted a round under the hammer, the part of the hammer that formed the firing pin would be resting directly on the rim of the rimfire cartridge.

Not as much of an issue with the six shot #2 at the top of the photo, but the #1 1/2 directly under it was a five shot revolver. Designed to be small enough to fit into a pocket, if one chamber was left empty, there were only four shots left.






Most S&W Top Break revolvers did have a 'safety cock' notch, but as I have previously mentioned, I would not trust it to not break if the hammer were struck with much force. The cross sections of the parts were just too thin.






I have already mentioned how I would never trust the rebounding hammer on this S&W New Model Number Three. The hammer is in the rebound position with the sear restrained by a tiny notch in the hammer. I have fired this revolver many times, and I would never trust that rebounding hammer.





Even with the sear in the 'safety cock' notch, I still don't trust it. Only five rounds in the cylinder with the hammer down on an empty chamber for me.

In another forum with the same topic (imagine that) I pointed out that the most famous S.A. of all time had two design failures !!! Obviously one was the "safety notch" (an obvious oversight by the "powers that be") and the "built in" action stop (which is why I install one in every SA that comes through the shop) !!! The "safety notch" failed and the "action stop" didn't even make much of an appearance!!! So, two design failures and STILL the most famous SA in the world!!
America !!!! Gotta love her!!!!

Mike

Mike

sleepysquirrel2 said:

See:


100 replies and not a single person has yet posted documentation from before 1899 describing the "cowboy carry."
You can't fault me for getting bored from waiting on you experts now, can you?

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And all you've provided is the manufacturer's literature, not evidence of what anyone actually did.

bdickens said:

And all you've provided is the manufacturer's literature, not evidence of what anyone actually did.

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You're right about this guy. Trying to make an impression, but, keeps getting bounced. Most here have stated their opinions on this. At least, it's been civil.

First, let me say, any and all firearms I've owned were to be shot. I'm not a collector. If you have a collector item, it is usually put away or displayed only.

Now, just for grins and giggles, IF the original safety notch doesn't work as people think it should, has anyone tried to deepen the notch? That would NOT affect the hammer, trigger, sear interaction.

Well, if ya don't know ya don't know. The instructions say what to do and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Just like the action stop. Time is an infallible judge. Had this happened 100 yrs later, Colt probably would have folded.

Mike

45 Dragoon said:

DJ, (hey !!) You're correct, I just think it's amazing that anyone would think it's "OK" to rest a hammer (firing pin "mounted" or "in frame" that would be on a primer) on a live round !!! I (and everyone that read this) I'm a little dumber for posting/reading this!! Should have just bypassed this thread.

I thought it was about the " safety" features but when it concerns "common" sense, it's anybody's guess!!! Sorry to interrupt the flow guys !!!

Mike

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I'm not sure what you are getting at here, but the demonstration was done in a safe manner and was done to show why you never carry a 3 screw ruger (or any other revolver without a hammer block or transfer bar) with a live cartridge under the hammer.

It actually.surprised me how easily the.cartridge went off, and I was expecting it to.

PWC said:

First, let me say, any and all firearms I've owned were to be shot. I'm not a collector. If you have a collector item, it is usually put away or displayed only.

Now, just for grins and giggles, IF the original safety notch doesn't work as people think it should, has anyone tried to deepen the notch? That would NOT affect the hammer, trigger, sear interaction.

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Didn't you see the photos of the very collectable old revolvers that I actually shoot?

Anyway, at least with a Colt, deepening the notch will not help.

Look at this photo again. No matter how deep the notch is, the tip of the trigger (the sear) is very thin, and might break off if the hammer was whacked.

I have seen this happen with a replica of the Winchester Model 1873 rifle. A strong blow to the hammer sheared off the sear.

It seems to me, if the gun was going to be a working gun, deepening the notch, and making a reprofiled trigger to fit the deeper notch would not be hard.

I had to remake a fly for an old Taurus model 80, years ago, and I'm no gunsmith. I used a bench grinder, Dychem, files, stones, Burnz-omatic and oil.

If you want to carry 6 and you are seriously worried about safety, why wouldn't you do what's necessary for both? I'm 78, and I have noticed younger the generations shy away from time and effort projects. Not a criticism; just an observation.

Sarge7402 said:

First while your depictions of what was printed might be right, they do not mean that it was ever a safe practice.

You see, the firing pin on the hammer of an original and clone without a transfer bar or rebound lever protrudes from the face of the recoil shield far enough that any sharp blow howsoever slight will set the cartridge under the hammer off and right down one's leg.

The only way for it to be safe is to once fully loaded and the hammer lowered, to raise the hammer to the very first notch (safety cock).

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I think you meant to quote and respond to someone else...

Anyway, on my Colt SAA, it arrived with the safety notch broken away. Although looking at the photo posted by Driftwood, it would seem the trigger sear would break off first, I've read that it was common for the safety notch to break. This is dangerous as, in most instances, it would still allow the hammer to rest at that notch with the user thinking it was in a safe position. But pressing the trigger or jolting the pistol will allow the hammer to fall because the material that was intended to hold the sear in place in the notch is the material that tends to break away. My new SAA's hammer could be set on the safety notch but pulling the trigger would drop the hammer.

I would guess that metallurgy in the late 1800s was not up to today's standards. Combined with the likelihood that the old six-shooters were subjected to more hard use and abuse than the average modern piece, I'd also guess safety notch (or sear) breakage was more common and would become a known issue. And continuing to build on this completely hypothetical case, I'd also speculate that folks back then had to have a decent amount of common sense just to survive. I'm going to guess that unless the situation suggested it was worth the risk, most folks carried the pistol with the hammer over an empty chamber.

That's my speculative two cents worth.

The cap and ball revos had either pins, or notches, between the nipples, where the hammer could safely rest. Some modern .22s (the NAA mini revolvers) have a similar system. This last isn't foolproof; you have to make almighty sure the hammer nose is securely in its notch.
Anyway, was some similar system ever adopted for cartridge arms more generally?

BTW, as regards knowing what folks actually did back then; if factory instructions aren't considered as a solid determination, I'm doubtful that we'll find some clear written record.
And a thot' about 'hair' triggers; someplace in my (really jumbled) memory vault, I recall something about 'sweetening' a revolver's trigger by hours of dry snapping.
How's that for a hodgepodge?
Moon

Geez, I can't believe this thread still has legs.

.45Coltguy said:

Geez, I can't believe this thread still has legs.

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I believe.

I just looked at the original post, and notice that it asserted that the “Frontier” closed in 1890, because the Census Bureau said so. Maybe the Frontier did “close,” but there are still working cowboys, who use horses while moving cattle, within a couple of hours’ drive from here. Whether or not any of those working cowboys still carry SAA-pattern revolvers, or not, there are some few folks who do, so, the “history” of the SAA-pattern revolver is still being made. I reckon that this thread will never die.

I did not carry an SAA-pattern revolver, while I was a lawman, 1984 to 2018. Any revolver I carried, in public, on or off the clock, had to be double-action. (Defense of self, or others, was considered line-of-duty, so, PD rules, about firearms, applied 24/7.) So, any potential to “make” history has largely faded. No 21st-Century Stuart Lake is likely to want to write my story.

In retirement, however, I have found that the SAA-pattern grip is quite comfortable, for aging hands to be launching large pieces of lead, and I am starting to detect some difficulty in long-stroke double-action trigger pulling. I am a sample of one, and occasionally do carry an SAA-pattern revolver, hammer down, over an empty chamber. In the future, I may carry an SAA-pattern sixgun, more of the time. Life is good.

My brand spankin New Ruger Vaquero .45 LC has a light trigger, not at all a hair trigger but dang if it's not lighter than 2lbs. I accidently fired off a couple rounds cocking it at the range. Gotta make sure that finger is all the way off the trigger. I like it.

Any data on how many safety notches failed? Tesla says their auto pilot works just fine.
That's the issue I would be most concerned about- how well it really does work.

How does the OP feel about the myth that cowpokes kept a $20 bill in the empty chamber to pay for their funeral in case they died on the trail?

Also proven to be a myth.

Pat Riot said:

Also proven to be a myth.

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Probably drank it away in the next cowtown.

desmobob said:

I think you meant to quote and respond to someone else...

Anyway, on my Colt SAA, it arrived with the safety notch broken away. Although looking at the photo posted by Driftwood, it would seem the trigger sear would break off first, I've read that it was common for the safety notch to break. This is dangerous as, in most instances, it would still allow the hammer to rest at that notch with the user thinking it was in a safe position. But pressing the trigger or jolting the pistol will allow the hammer to fall because the material that was intended to hold the sear in place in the notch is the material that tends to break away.

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And, since the notch and sear are invisible to the user, and since no one looks anyway, how would the user know the mechanism is unsafe? The first accidental discharge, that's how.

I would guess that metallurgy in the late 1800s was not up to today's standards.

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Darn right those plain carbon steels were inferior in every respect to the "same" steels today. The primary reason, in my opinion, is all the non oxidizing elements that were left in the steel. The steel furnaces of the day used air to burn out impurities. The air would combine with elements, but there are a surprising number of elements, copper, nickle, vanadium, tungsten, chromium are just a few that won't burn out. Given the composition of the iron ore varied based on where it was dug, the percentages of residual elements was unknown. And as scrap was dumped back into the kettle, the residual percentage increased with subsequent batches. This crap unpredictably, but always, reduced the strength and the lifetime of vintage steels. Sometime in the 1950's steel makers are using argon gas flushes, but not before.

A shooter brought out his Stevens M414 22 lr target rifle out to the range, and we smallbore shooter's ooh'd and aah'd over it. Still had some case hardening on the sides. The shooter, the rifle belonged to his Grandfather or Great Grandfather. There was a proof mark, a circle with a 20 inside, don't know if that means proofed in 1920 or not. According to one poster, these rifles were made from 1908 to 1932.

Good pictures of a Stevens M414 here: https://bushcraftusa.com/forum/threads/stevens-414-22-rimfire-armory-rifle.144271/



Anyway, while the rifle was in excellent condition, the bluing was amazing and the wood was better than anything you find on the shelf today, the trigger had a crack extending into the receiver, just in line with the trigger pin hole. The owner just rolled his eyes and said that crack had been there for as long as he had been around. Which I guess, was more than 60 or 70 years, as none of us is spring chickens. That is the sort of stuff that happened with steels back then, they failed frequently and without warning, due to all the flaws, inclusions, and residuals.

Something that was true of the period, people just accepted dangerous jobs and dangerous products. Product manuals did not come with warnings. You were expected to know better, or you were expected to figure it out after you lost a couple of fingers!



Those were the days!.. How about a nice relaxing smoke with your asbestos pipe.





How about the lead that children were exposed to, on a daily basis?






I was given lead toy airplanes and figures from Depression era adults, things they played with.

I know this is not answering the OP question, but it is worth a watch. Hickok45 demonstrates how easily a round can fire with the hammer down on it.

I’ve said before, the “old west” wasn’t a single instant frozen in time, with a monolithic uniformity. I’m sure that when the SAA was introduced most purchasers did the obvious thing and loaded 6. As time went on and dedicated users became more familiar with them, and accidents happened, some undoubtedly started carrying just 5.

By the ‘20s the only ones using a SAA were early Old West aficionados and serious fans of the design, both groups more likely to load 5 than a more casual user. In the case of the aficionados, they’d load 5 solely because Wyatt Earp said it was the mark of a true pistolero.