Family member firing handgun in my name

Status
Not open for further replies.
O

orpington

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Messages
1,152
Can I take a revolver for which I completed a Form 4473 (and also I have a concealed carry permit) to the range and can my wife LEGALLY fire it under my direct supervision? She does not have a criminal record, but she also doesn’t have a concealed carry permit (although I don’t think the concealed carry part of it—mine, or lack of hers—even comes into play here). She also never has completed a Form 4473 to purchase a firearm.

Now, depending on the answer, IF I had the luxury of being able to shoot on my own property ( which really is a luxury, and I don’t own luxury items, LOL!), would the answer be any different?

And, would this vary by state, or Commonwealth, of residence?
 
orpington said:
Can I take a revolver for which I completed a Form 4473 (and also I have a concealed carry permit) to the range and can my wife LEGALLY fire it under my direct supervision? She does not have a criminal record, but she also doesn’t have a concealed carry permit (although I don’t think the concealed carry part of it—mine, or lack of hers—even comes into play here). She also never has completed a Form 4473 to purchase a firearm.

Now, depending on the answer, IF I had the luxury of being able to shoot on my own property ( which really is a luxury, and I don’t own luxury items, LOL!), would the answer be any different?

And, would this vary by state, or Commonwealth, of residence?
Click to expand...

What state are you in?
 
JeeperCreeper said:
If you are in Pennsylvania then she can.

And unless something changed in the last 5 years, PA does not have a registry.

And the idea of transferring guns "into my name" is a very bad habit as it will encourage complacency with further infringement.

Flex those rights
Click to expand...
Can you clarify what you mean here?
 
If your wife is not under age ( :eek: ), a resident of another state, or a "prohibited person" there is no Federal restriction on loaning her your revolver or even gifting it to her. Under Federal law, you can simply give it to her with no fuss, no bother.

On the other hand, state and local laws vary across the country, so you'll have to check for your jurisdiction. In civilized states there will be no issue, but there should be some information for the applicable actual state & local laws for YOUR residence available on line. Since you have a concealed carry license, I suggest you start by looking at your state's concealed carry license page where they may have additional links.
 
I was under the impression that private party HANDGUN transfers in Pa. had to be conducted via dealer.....further I've read commentary from Pennsylvania folks that those transfers amount to a defacto registry.......I have family there and AFAIK mere usage does not constitute any special restriction.
 
As long as she is not a prohibited person, your wife can shoot any handgun that you own.

PA does not have a registry, so if your wife were to get her LTCF (license to carry firearms), your wife can legally carry any firearm that has been transferred in your name. My wife can carry anything that is listed under my name. Nothing has to be in her name.

Also, firearm transfers between spouses in PA does not have to go through a FFL dealer. The same applies to parents and children as well as grandparents and grandchildren, proved the person that receives the firearm is not a prohibited person and also a legal resident of PA.
 
If you plan on going to one of the free, public ranges run by the PA Game Commission, you need either a valid hunting license or a range use permit. With the hunting license you can have one guest (your wife).

if you don’t have the hunting license, you must have the range use permit. I do not know if the permit allows you to have a guest. You have to check on that as I have a hunting license. Your wife may have to get her own range use permit.

On your own property, nothing is needed.
 
(c) Duty of other persons.--Any person who is not a licensed
importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or
transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only
upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer,
dealer or county sheriff's office, the latter of whom shall
follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the
seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not
apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a
parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and
grandchild.
 
Just to clarify, you're asking if you can have your wife accompany you to the range, and shoot your firearm while y'all are both there, right?
There have been responses regarding transfers and such, but I don't read the question that way.
Is there a state where you can't have a friend or family member go to the range with you and y'all shoot each other's guns while you're there?
Maybe I've just been spoiled here in the south.
 
Arkansas Paul said:
Is there a state where you can't have a friend or family member go to the range with you and y'all shoot each other's guns while you're there?
Click to expand...
I gather that's the crux of it. That the definition of "transfer" in the law blurs the sense of the meaning from "change legal ownership/title" and "pass from hand to hand (w/o ownership change).
And there are several States where a change in ownership is required to go through an FFL in addition to other State requirements.
NY's CCIA may have issues with this very topic.
 
Rule3 said:
Seriously? A immediate family member?
….
Click to expand...

Bah!

One needs to understand how to analyze a legal issue properly. And as has been pointed out multiple times, the law is not intuitive, simple, nor necessarily straight forward.

  1. The word “transfer” means what it means.

  2. Transfer is about possession, not ownership.

    Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):


  3. Federal and state law regulates the transfer of firearms.

  4. Federal law generally requires a background check on transfers of firearms from an FFL to a person or across state lines. But federal laws includes some minor exceptions, such as, under some circumstances, temporary loans of a firearm for a lawful, sporting purpose. But federal law doesn’t make any exceptions for transfers between family members.

  5. The laws of most States don’t require formalities for firearm transfers between individuals (but federal law requires that they both be residents of the State).

  6. But an increasing number of States require background checks on private party transfers. But even those laws usually include some type of exception such as, usually subject to some conditions, loans to a family member.

  7. Such laws vary considerably by State.

  8. So the bottomline is that every loan is a transfer, but not every loan will be subject to a background check.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Bah!

One needs to understand how to analyze a legal issue properly. And as has been pointed out multiple times, the law is not intuitive, simple, nor necessarily straight forward.

  1. The word “transfer” means what it means.

  2. Transfer is about possession, not ownership.

    Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):
  3. Federal and state law regulates the transfer of firearms.

  4. Federal law generally requires a background check on transfers of firearms from an FFL to a person or across state lines. But federal laws includes some minor exceptions, such as, under some circumstances, temporary loans of a firearm for a lawful, sporting purpose. But federal law doesn’t make any exceptions for transfers between family members.

  5. The laws of most States don’t require formalities for firearm transfers between individuals (but federal law requires that they both be residents of the State).

  6. But an increasing number of States require background checks on private party transfers. But even those laws usually include some type of exception such as, usually subject to some conditions, loans to a family member.

  7. Such laws vary considerably by State.

  8. So the bottomline is that every loan is a transfer, but not every loan will be subject to a background check.
Click to expand...

Yes, by definition of the word "transfer" and semantics it is a transfer, The word is not what non lawyers consider it when using anothers gun at the range
but does not help the OP and his question until we get to:

  1. Federal law generally requires a background check on transfers of firearms from an FFL to a person or across state lines. But federal laws includes some minor exceptions, such as, under some circumstances, temporary loans of a firearm for a lawful, sporting purpose. But federal law doesn’t make any exceptions for transfers between family members.
  2. The laws of most States don’t require formalities for firearm transfers between individuals (but federal law requires that they both be residents of the State).
  3. But an increasing number of States require background checks on private party transfers. But even those laws usually include some type of exception such as, usually subject to some conditions, loans to a family member.
  4. Such laws vary considerably by State.
  5. So the bottomline is that every loan is a transfer, but not every loan will be subject to a background check.

Even if the State requires private party background checks does that apply to the OPs question??

What are the "includes some minor exceptions, such as, under some circumstances, temporary loans of a firearm for a lawful, sporting purpose."????

Which is why it is so difficult to get a definitive answer here.

Unless the OP has some state law against someone using his gun at the range, (if they are not prohibited) it seems OK.

 
Last edited:
Frank Ettin said:
I suspect that might be a problem in New York State and/or NYC.
Click to expand...
Do you suspect it's an actual problem or a theoretical one? I suspect that there are plenty of ranges in NY (maybe not NYC) where two friends or spouses can go and have a good time trying out each others weapons without worry of getting in any legal trouble over it. In fact, the NY Hunters Safety manual specifically instructs people to "transfer" each other's weapons back and forth when crossing a fence. I realize that laws are sometimes contradictory, but I would bet that even in NY, no one will be getting in legal trouble for following advice from their hunter's safety class.
 
Gun Rentals
All this talk about the word "transfer" and its use has me wondering about rental guns at ranges throughout the U.S.

I recently asked if a certain gun was available for rent a local range that rented guns, because I was interested in buying that model.
I didn't rent a gun, so I can't speak to what screening questions or forms I would have needed to complete, or if a "transfer" would have been part of the process.

Has anyone rented a gun and what is the process, is it a transfer or not?
sorry for the drift,
:uhoh:
.
 
Rule3 said:
…Unless the OP has some state law against someone using his gun at the range, (if they are not prohibited) it seems OK….
Click to expand...

Yes, that’s true.

But the only way to get an answer that one can really “take to the bank” is to do some research into the relevant State’s law. It’s probably okay, but to be sure one needs to do the research.
 
bearcreek said:
Do you suspect it's an actual problem or a theoretical one?….
Click to expand...

  • I said “suspect” because I don’t know.

  • I have a suspicion, because I know that New York State and NYC have some draconian and somewhat bizarre gun laws.

  • So it would be great if someone with actual knowledge of what the relevant laws are could tell us and offer some better legal authority than a hunters’ safety pamphlet statement about crossing fences.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

O
  • Locked
Pre 1899 ANTIQUE revolver for which I completed a Form 4473
2
Replies
44
Views
3K
vintovka
vintovka
R
  • Locked
No Gun Control
2
Replies
27
Views
827
MD_Willington
M
Gary Slider
  • Locked
Oklahoma to Honor Other States Constitutional Carry - - - Kentucky Info
Replies
15
Views
693
alsaqr
alsaqr
F
  • Locked
(SC) Bill would allow guns to be carried in schools
Replies
0
Views
296
Fred Fuller
F
P
  • Locked
Florida handgun purchase
Replies
5
Views
403
Winchester 73
W
Back
Top