N555
Member
For me the ultimate plinking load is 230gr fmj with about 4.5 to 4.6gr of wst, makes about 700fps. Real accurate.
Go over 5gr with wst and you start seeing like 70fps SD.
45 Hardball- doesn't need to be fancy
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Go over 5gr with wst and you start seeing like 70fps SD.
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Palladan44
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Allright.
Have a ladder loaded, 5 rounds each for each gun
Fed LPP
Fed Once fired and rod tumbled brass
Rainier Leadsafe 230gr TMJs (these are plated)
Seated to 1.250
Taper crimped to plunk
10 rounds (5 for each gun) W-231 @ 4.5
10 rounds " " W-231 @ 4.8
10 rounds. " " W-231 @ 5.1
There are my 2 firearms:
One is a 1911 franken-gun that has been my grandpa's(long rest his soul) shooter for decades, and mine for a few decades more. It has an Essex frame and a ww2 Colt slide, with other parts that are aftermarket. It's glass smooth and has never failed to fire for a long as I've had it. It looks and shoots great. It's in the same condition in which it was given to me.
Lastly is my newer 1911 MK-IV series 70 which is from the 20-teens. It's known as the "Model O"
I absolutely love it. It has nice high sights and look a bit more "Patridge" style. It also has ran flawlessly since I've had it, and is smooth like glass right out of the box. I'm expecting my great Grandkids to be enjoying thus gun, and likely the other one too.
Ps- Anyone know anything about the "Model-O"?
It must just be one of the many dozens of changes Colt has made to her firearms over the years, and I'm not going to pretend like I know anything more than I just like plain and simple 1911s The FFL that received it for me commented it was likely made overseas.... I have serious doubts about that. Sounded like a Colt-hater to me.
Have a ladder loaded, 5 rounds each for each gun
Fed LPP
Fed Once fired and rod tumbled brass
Rainier Leadsafe 230gr TMJs (these are plated)
Seated to 1.250
Taper crimped to plunk
10 rounds (5 for each gun) W-231 @ 4.5
10 rounds " " W-231 @ 4.8
10 rounds. " " W-231 @ 5.1
There are my 2 firearms:
One is a 1911 franken-gun that has been my grandpa's(long rest his soul) shooter for decades, and mine for a few decades more. It has an Essex frame and a ww2 Colt slide, with other parts that are aftermarket. It's glass smooth and has never failed to fire for a long as I've had it. It looks and shoots great. It's in the same condition in which it was given to me.
Lastly is my newer 1911 MK-IV series 70 which is from the 20-teens. It's known as the "Model O"
I absolutely love it. It has nice high sights and look a bit more "Patridge" style. It also has ran flawlessly since I've had it, and is smooth like glass right out of the box. I'm expecting my great Grandkids to be enjoying thus gun, and likely the other one too.
Ps- Anyone know anything about the "Model-O"?
It must just be one of the many dozens of changes Colt has made to her firearms over the years, and I'm not going to pretend like I know anything more than I just like plain and simple 1911s The FFL that received it for me commented it was likely made overseas.... I have serious doubts about that. Sounded like a Colt-hater to me.
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tominboise
Member
Do you find that all 230gr FMJ bullets are created equal, or do you have a preference?From Clawson’s book Colt .45 service pistols: Models of 1911 and 1911A1.
(At $1,100 a book, I think I am going to hold on to my copy!)
The original 45ACP load, used in the 1910 trials, and then hencefore for decades was a 230 FMJ with 5.0 grains of Bullseye pistol powder. The specified velocity was 800 fps.
Slower on a cold day, moving about where I expected on a warm. Just like us all.
Rock Island Arsenal GI M1911
230 FMJ 5.0 grs Bullseye (1998 & 2005 mix) WLP, OAL 1.265" taper crimp 0.469"once fired brass
18-Dec-17 T = 58 °F
Ave Vel = 777.4
Std Dev = 14.56
ES = 57.1
High = = 806
Low = 748.9
Number rds= 30
230 gr RMR FMJ 5.0 grs Bullseye lot 907 6/5/05 Mixed cases WLP OAL 1.265" taper crimp 0.469"
27-May-20 T = 80 °F
Ave Vel = 795.1
Std Dev = 22.11
ES = 67.6
High = = 839.5
Low = 771.9
N = 8
Given that powder pressures vary, leading to velocity variations, these old cartridge boxes show early 45 ACP ammunition went 800 fps.
View attachment 1115327
and this was the National Match ammunition for that year. Velocities on the box.
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Bullseye pistol powder is the baseline for the 45 ACP, it is still hugely popular in 2700 Bullseye pistol competition because it can be downloaded and it still shoots within the inherent capability of the pistol at 50 yards.
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a light load such as what Ernest was using, requires a 12 lb recoil spring for function.
When Bullseye pistol powder became hard to find Titegroup gained a following. Basically I like faster powders in the 1911 than slower. I consider Unique a slower powder. Pressure drop is very important, I don’t know if the 1911 was designed to use the residual blowback effect, as what pressure gauges did John Browning have, but the residual blowback affect is clearly in operation in a 1911. The residual blowback affect uses the last of the pressure in the barrel, to push the case out during unlock. This has to be timed so unlock is under the burst strength of a case sidewall, about 650 psia or less, and won't rip the rim off! You can see from the drag marks, and the soot on the case, that these cases were moving while there still was pressure in the barrel.
View attachment 1115334
Slower powders would be great in things like Thompson sub guns, where the bolt is extremely heavy,
Custom Thompson receiver, upside down
View attachment 1115335
Custom Thompson sub gun bolt
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View attachment 1115338
but in my 1911’s, a slower powder such as Unique, or Blue Dot, accelerates the slide more than I like and kicks cases out 20 feet or more. I consider high slide speeds undesirable as I have had slide to frame peening, and luckily the Colt Combat Elite was still within warranty and I sent it back to Colt. They replaced the frame, but did not do anything about the action timing. So I sent that pistol off to Wilson Arms, and they made everything perfect. It is a sad comment that the gunsmiths at Wilson Arms understood 1911’s better than Colt’s gunsmiths.
View attachment 1115339
I adjust the powder charge so I get 800 fps plus or minus, and that load shoots well in my 1911’s. I have a 1990’s keg of AA#5 that I am shooting up. It is a ball powder, the better metering means little to nothing in actual velocity spreads, and the little balls will gum up a Dillion powder horn. I don’t plan to buy new unless I get some dirt cheap, but adjust the load so a 230 FMJ moves 800 fps, and pretty much, it will group in the middle, and function the pistol.
View attachment 1115340
View attachment 1115341
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This is going to sound horrible, but I will pick up very pristine fired 230 FMJ's off the ground at ranges, wipe off any grit, reload them, and blast them down range! In a way, I am being environmentally conscious.
Actually, I am cheap. All I really use FMJ's for is to blow the lead out of the barrel. I have ammo cans of pulled GI 230 FMJ's, am using up a new can of the cheapest RMR FMJ's I could find. The RIA 1911 leads horribly, even after several ammo cans of rounds, and two bullet polishing sessions. That pistol requires FMJ's.
As long as the pistol functions, goes bang, and the round more or less hits near point of aim, I am happy. The really good bullseye shooters are using 185 JHP, going around 800 fps. Jacketed hollow point bullets are inherently accurate, but I am not shooting at their level. So I will not see a difference between the point of impact between recycled range pickups, and new pristine bullets.
GeoDudeFlorida
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This is going to sound horrible, but I will pick up very pristine fired 230 FMJ's off the ground at ranges, wipe off any grit, reload them, and blast them down range! In a way, I am being environmentally conscious.
Actually, I am cheap. All I really use FMJ's for is to blow the lead out of the barrel. I have ammo cans of pulled GI 230 FMJ's, am using up a new can of the cheapest RMR FMJ's I could find. The RIA 1911 leads horribly, even after several ammo cans of rounds, and two bullet polishing sessions. That pistol requires FMJ's.
As long as the pistol functions, goes bang, and the round more or less hits near point of aim, I am happy. The really good bullseye shooters are using 185 JHP, going around 800 fps. Jacketed hollow point bullets are inherently accurate, but I am not shooting at their level. So I will not see a difference between the point of impact between recycled range pickups, and new pristine bullets.
Man, that is cheap! Why didn’t I think of it?
I wonder if a prosecutor would try to make the case that using bullets previously fired from another firearm then used in a homicide was pre tampering with evidence?
Kinda makes a feller wonder.
Except for some of the newer plated stuff and commercial cast with various coatings 230 RN is 230 RN and it all shoots pretty much the same. For me.
CQB45ACP
Member
This is going to sound horrible, but I will pick up very pristine fired 230 FMJ's off the ground at ranges, wipe off any grit, reload them, and blast them down range! In a way, I am being environmentally conscious.
Actually, I am cheap. All I really use FMJ's for is to blow the lead out of the barrel. I have ammo cans of pulled GI 230 FMJ's, am using up a new can of the cheapest RMR FMJ's I could find. The RIA 1911 leads horribly, even after several ammo cans of rounds, and two bullet polishing sessions. That pistol requires FMJ's.
As long as the pistol functions, goes bang, and the round more or less hits near point of aim, I am happy. The really good bullseye shooters are using 185 JHP, going around 800 fps. Jacketed hollow point bullets are inherently accurate, but I am not shooting at their level. So I will not see a difference between the point of impact between recycled range pickups, and new pristine bullets.
At what range distance is a lead bullet lying on the ground and pristine?
tominboise
Member
I don't know the range but they are Full Metal Jacket bullets, not plain lead bullets.
ballman6711
Member
Don't remember what distance I found these at, but I was shooting at ~25yds. The one on the left could easily be wiped clean and reloaded. Don't know how accurate it would be, but I'm sure it would work. Might leak a little gas from the existing striations. Bullet is a 185gr Speer TMJ.
chris
chris
Charlie98
Member
In one of my load workups, 5.2grn WST under a 200grn RMR PSWC worked supreme in one of my pistols, 5.4grn of it went completely catiwonker. I have found bullet seating depth has a lot to do with how well WST works. Following that logic, maybe I need to revisit WST in 230grn bullets... I have 2.5# of it to burn up, anyway.
N555
Member
I haven't tried wst with 185 or 200gr. Only 230gr FMJ (not plated, but I suspect plated results would be really close to FMJ results).
Charlie98
Member
"45 Hardball- doesn't need to be fancy"
Some folks will try to make it more than it is!
Following that logic...
'.45 Hardball' suggests 230grn FMJ at standard factory velocity, or roughly 830fps.... but, in reality, the .45ACP IS much more than that. How much more depends on what you plan to do with it.
LiveLife
Member
Rainier bullets are regular plated bullets sized .451" and I have had good results using lead load data.
And 45ACP and W231/HP-38 go together like bread and butter.
BTW, here is Hodgdon lead load data I referenced for my load development (Note the difference in OAL) - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center
- 45ACP 230 gr Lead RN W231 COL 1.200" Start 4.3 gr (699 fps) - Max 5.3 gr (834 fps)
- 45ACP 230 gr Lead RN W231 COL 1.240" Start 5.1 gr (794 fps) - Max 5.6 gr (853 fps)
- 4.5 231 @ 1.230 655fps - very dirty
- 4.8 231 @ 1.230 701fps - still dirty
- 5.0 231 @ 1.230 760fps - I load most here
- 5.2 231 @ 1.230 778fps - best accuracy
I save been reloading 45 ACP for three guns and the good portion are plain old 230 gr. FMJ over the "classic" load of 5.0 gr. of Bullseye. I've tried a bunch of other bullets but now mostly just load two, the 230 FMJ and a cast 200 gr. LSWC. (Getting old and loading the short, fat cases with a short fat bullet is much easier than handling than smaller calibers). I am a little extra careful making ammo for my HP 45 ACP carbine because I can get sub 2" groups at 30+ yards with is with my 230/Bullseye loads...
BTW; God made the chicken, the chicken made the egg and I eat both...
BTW; God made the chicken, the chicken made the egg and I eat both...
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At the distance I find it. You just have to get out there an look for the things, typically I am picking them up around 50 to 100 yards, because that is where the Smallbore frames are, and where I am changing targets.
Pristine in terms of light rifling grooves, but no distortion which would not allow feeding. It is always surprising to find a bullet that can be re used, what's the probability of survival? Occasionally I find a lead bullet, unmarked except for firing grooves. That's like an egg surviving after being thrown as a fast ball.
I used to dig in berms for rifle bullets, they are typically a disappointment. The old 150 FMJ's used in the Garand and M14 would nose dive in the dirt, than take a banana shape. Expanding bullets, they sometimes expand, sometimes bend. Can't remember one that was not distorted.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
With 230s my guns like 4.7-5.0gr of HP38(=W231)
4.7 is a bit softer and 5.0 is maybe a hair more accurate.
4.7 is a bit softer and 5.0 is maybe a hair more accurate.
CQB45ACP
Member
It’s lethal at 100 yds though but falls to the ground? No matter it’s all academic to me since I shoot indoors anyway.
LiveLife
Member
No, no.
Save up those 45ACP brass with small primers. They are desirable for some THR members wanting to reload 45ACP with same SP primers.
I am using up Tula SP primers with harder cups that won't reliably go bang in my Glocks but has been 100% reliable in 45ACP with small primer pockets.
Well, these bullets might have bounced off that invisible alien ship between the firing line and target. Or winged a Big Foot walking in front of the target butts.
Just get out to a very busy range, and go looking when no one is firing. There are a lot of bullets skipping across the ground. Sometimes they don't make it all the way to the berm. Sometimes they are in the berm. You need a shovel for fast dirt removal.
GeoDudeFlorida
Member
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They would be pretty terrific for revolvers too. Great way to keep brass segregated.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I don’t know. Sounds suspicious to me. Are you suggesting people shooting paper targets at a club range might not be using +P+ FMJ ammo?? Inconceivable!
A few years ago I did a "I wanna know" test on small vs large primers so I bought 200 small primed 45 ACP cases. Besides a so-so result showed me there ain't enough difference to make a difference, I have way more small primers than large primers so the small primed brass is a good thing. Now have a few more cases to reload and I just look at the case head before priming...
CQB45ACP
Member
Yeah well I was trying to ask a serious question. Puzzling how a piece of lead even if plated traveling 800fps can hit the ground without considerable damage. That all thanks
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