Not Hearing the Law to Drop It

An off-duty Vermont sheriff's deputy was shot by police in upstate New York on Sunday after he exchanged fire with a group of men.

I wonder if, after exchanging fire, he could even hear the officers' commands. Something for anyone carrying a gun for self defense to think about. Especially those of us who only shoot our gun under range rules (eye and ear protection mandatory).

Many years ago on a deserted street around two or three in the morning I was approached by a young man while I was standing outside my patrol car in uniform. He crossed a wide street right at me wearing a hoodie that concealed his face with his hands in the hoody’s pockets. I did my customary greeting in a loud manner and got no visible response. I went into defensive mode and loudly challenged him - again with just a greeting while turning just enough that my weak side was toward him while my hand was on
my sidearm out of view, still in the holster…. Still no response or any acknowledgment from someone I considered a threat. At that point I shouted “show me your hands” as I drew down on him ready to shoot if needed… still no response… I readied myself to engage him as he approached Tueller distance, seven meters, from me when when he finally looked up, stopped instantly and raised his hands…

Imagine how I felt when I found out he was totally deaf and no threat to anyone at all.. We spent about twenty minutes, communicating back and forth in writing on a page of my patrol notebook as I tied to explain that his behavior had spooked me to the point that I was certain a deadly assault was coming. I don’t know if he accepted my apology and explanation but it was an incident I never forgot…. How close we came to a tragedy. By the way that street was so well lit that I didn’t have my flashlight in hand and a light might have caught his attention when no sound would work…

Off duty LE in street clothes looks like everyone else.
If a uniform officer is screaming drop the gun and ya don't, getting shot is likely.

I wonder if, being that the deputy is a sworn LEO, it never entered his mind that they were commanding him to drop his weapon. Assuming that he actually did hear the command at all, his training may never include being considered a threat and how to conduct himself accordingly.

10 bullet wounds and he's in stable condition. Buy a lottery ticket. And maybe don't go out drinking at 3 am with your girlfriend.

I imagine in a real use of force situation, it may be difficult to tell who is who. There was an active shooter in Lakewood Colorado last year who was wearing body armor, who looked close enough like responding officers. He was stopped, but not until he was able to shoot an officer who hesitated due to his clothing and eventually gave verbal commands. Here is a link, with her reflections on lessons learned:

https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/lakewood-police-ashley-ferris-shooting-spree/

Here is some video of it from overhead: https://www.9news.com/article/news/...tings/73-15bad125-7066-468b-b857-4225add87d5e

My takeaways from these, and the original posting, is that you cannot let yourself get hyper-focused and have tunnel vision. It is something you have to train out of you, hundreds and thousands of times, and is probably as important as good trigger control and sight alignment, as it lets you identify threats.

In my 22 years as a cop (all those years ago) I had my share of exciting, at times frightening... moments. Took me a few years to learn a routine for hazardous situations that didn't involve hyper ventilating and huge adrenaline rushes (this is not some TV show I'm talking about...). Among the most dangerous stuff I was involved in - high speed car chases were probably at the top of the list for real danger - and too often... I learned to chant to myself during them "look out for the cops" meaning my co-workers and any other agencies that might join in... Seriously, in many cases you could count on someone crashing out, occasionally two units colliding and taking each other out so "looking out for the cops" was a very good idea.. I also learned to chant the same phrase to myself at high hazard incidents where guns were involved since on more than one occasion you realize that some of your friends.. are pointing their guns - at YOU.... instead of at the bad guy... Blue on blue situations were almost guaranteed in some cases (everyone around the suspect pointing firearms at him or her - and actually pointing their weapons towards the cop on the other side of their target....). Not a good scene at all. Constant group or team training reduces this sort of stuff but one of the features of police work is that you might go months with nothing particularly dangerous going on - then when you least expect it - you draw the black marble and it's all on the line at a moment's notice... We focus on particular incidents where a good guy or two (and this applies to armed citizens as well) is confronted by one or several possible opponents -while never thinking that a family member or neighbor (or someone with a badge) might be a danger as well - while trying to assist you... In my career I can remember several incidents where more than one officer ended up at a local ER with gunshot wound(s) that were not fired by the suspect everyone was shooting at.... instead it was cop wounding a brother or sister officer... It happens unless you train to avoid it and keep refreshing that training. The best tactic we had - after the fact of a critical incident was to go over it in detail with our entire crew present to see what we did right- and what we did wrong.... That should be part of everyone's training regime - cop or armed citizen - if you've been involved in something that could easily have gone wrong... That's also how you build a great team - but that's just my opinion...

I can still remember leading the charge up three flights of stairs as a young sergeant (older apartment building, elevator not working) as me and several other officers were responding to a violent domestic problem ("he's killing her - come quick..."). As we neared the top floor I looked back and my guys were pointing their sidearms at my butt while running up the stairs... not a good feeling at all. That old joke in police work... Here's a guy wants to kill a cop - "quick call the Lieutenant"... was great fun when I was a rookie - not much fun at all when I was the Lieutenant..

For any armed citizen, considering the possible dangers when more than one on your side is armed and on the scene of an incident.... is well worth considering - and training for. Once a shot is fired you can't take it back - and that round will be going downrange as directed.. no matter who, or what is in the way...

By the way, those crazy dangerous car chases I mentioned were greatly curtailed about halfway through my career by policy, reinforced with training and discipline. I can't think of a single thing that did more to reduce the hazards ordinary officers face on the street than restricting car chases to only situations involving violent felonies... and requiring supervisors to end any chase that didn't qualify under that policy... Most cops will never fire a single shot on the street in an entire career but all of them have to make dangerous high speed runs as part of their job - all too often..

Here in Arvada, Johnny Hurley killed the AR wielding perp (who already killed an LEO) with his compact carry gun. With probably best intentions, he picked-up the perp's rifle (attempting to make safe?) and was shot by responding Arvada PD on first contact. I guess the lesson is to re-conceal your weapon at first opportunity, and don't fiddle around with other weapons on scene. The "defensive experts" who say you always have time to properly reholster in a safe and purposeful manner are completely wrong. You may need to just shove it into your jacket pocket, a scenario where a full DA trigger would be miles ahead of a "great" striker trigger for avoiding AD/ND issues and immediate incoming return fire.

This is why stress inoculation is so important. People get so amped up under pressure they completely lose all situational awareness. It's a real thing and happens all the time.

Howland937 said:

I wonder if, being that the deputy is a sworn LEO, it never entered his mind that they were commanding him to drop his weapon. Assuming that he actually did hear the command at all, his training may never include being considered a threat and how to conduct himself accordingly.

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Considering there were probably 50 different types of city, state, and federal law enforcement agencies working in NYC, our training included reacting to being challenged by LE from behind while not in uniform.

We were to follow the commands of the challenging officer and respond back with a specified script. Thankfully, I was only in that situation once, but that was long before we had that training or the script.

There was no incident, I was bent over working on a car and a Nassau Cty. (LI) LEO saw my gun in an IWB holster and drew on me and cocked his weapon from behind with no warning or verbal exchange whatsoever. Needless to say, we had words after that.

1KPerDay said:

10 bullet wounds and he's in stable condition. Buy a lottery ticket. And maybe don't go out drinking at 3 am with your girlfriend.

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That's why I can't wrap my head around limiting myself to a five round gun.

GEM said:

This is an interesting but tragic incident:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/off-duty...-shot-police-new-york-after-refusing-drop-gun




Given the vagaries of selective attention - I wonder if the officer even heard, in the perceptual sense, the commands to drop the gun. So threat focused, nothing else mattered. We know that perception is altered by stress. I know at a very professional FOF event, one participant was so threat focused after a run, that he had to almost be forcibly disarmed as he was acting as if he was in a real incident. Things like that happen.

In the back pack rifle thread, it made me think, that someone assembling his or her gun would or might ignore arriving law or other defenders commands to cease - leading to something like the incident described. I could see other defenders telling the backpacker to STOP!

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RETIREE here,and I am sure that when I was on the job I was even sharper.

The second you lose your ability to look ALL AROUND and see any & all threats.

Thats when you need to holster and WITHDRAW.

Its all on you,to have situational awareness = its not the responders who need to hold their fire.

IF you dont know that,do not EVER draw your hogleg.

I am still carrying 24/7 and I am even more aware as I am NOT a sworn officer with my department to back me.

That officer made a horrible mistake,one he will pay for the rest of his life.

Its not right, but its the reality of the situation that carrying a gun for SD might get you shot by LE should you ever have to use it.

There are endless circumstances where this could happen and I'm not going to derail the thread going into that.

Point being, if you're going to EDC you best be at peace with the fact that if you ever have to use it that there is the "possibility" you may be shot by LE.

Howland937 said:

I wonder if, being that the deputy is a sworn LEO, it never entered his mind that they were commanding him to drop his weapon. Assuming that he actually did hear the command at all, his training may never include being considered a threat and how to conduct himself accordingly.

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Yup. As a (sadly not retired) patrol cop, that was my first thought as well.

A defender has to train to maintain situational awareness and avoid locking in on threats in the moments immediately after a defensive shooting. This doesn't happen automatically.

I've been trained to do the following after every defensive shooting drill:

1) over the top of the sights, follow the opponent or opponents down to the ground,
2) one by one, verify that each opponent is no longer a threat,
3) make a quick scan around me,
4) move off the "X" (to cover if possible), and
5) do a thorough 360 degree scan around, above, and below me.

During those scans, look for:

1) accomplices,
2) allies, including loved ones,
3) responding officers,
4) injuries to myself, allies, and bystanders,
5) the condition of my gun, and
6) witnesses and evidence.

Only then, communicate. Private citizens call 911, and officers radio dispatch. Ask for assistance.

With practice, these steps become virtually automatic. Step through them after every shooting drill on a 360 degree range, or during dry practice. Mime them on a firing line or indoor range. Make them as automatic as muzzle awareness and trigger finger discipline.

Gun gamers might laugh at the "Tactical Timmies" who scan after every stage. However, if the Vermont deputy had known and followed this sequence, he would perhaps have become aware of responding officers sooner, and might not have been shot. The same is true for the other defenders we've read about who have been injured or killed by unnoticed accomplices or by responding officers.

To piggyback on @luzyfuerza 's solid post…once area deemed safe…getting the sidearm back into the holster will be perceived as far less threatening by anyone else rolling-up onto the scene.

Jeff White said:

No one but you can see your “good guy halo” it’s invisible to the rest of the world. Here is a fun fact for you; LE is often shot by responding LE even happens to uniformed officers.

Many years ago I had occasion to detain burglary suspects at my neighbors house. Even though dispatch was informed who I was, what I was wearing and that I was armed and I knew the responding deputies personally having worked with them and got together off duty with them I MADE SURE THAT I DID NOT HAVE A WEAPON IN MY HANDS WHEN THE FIRST DEPUTY ARRIVED ON SCENE.

Anyone who is visibly armed when responding officers arrive is in danger of being shot. That’s just the reality of the situation.

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I feel like you just reiterated the same thing I said.

Not trying to be confrontational but correct me if I'm wrong.

Speedo66 said:

There was no incident, I was bent over working on a car and a Nassau Cty. (LI) LEO saw my gun in an IWB holster and drew on me and cocked his weapon from behind with no warning or verbal exchange whatsoever. Needless to say, we had words after that.

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In states where encountering "a good citizen with a gun" has been rare for generations, this kind of mistake may become more common in a post-Bruen world.

Rarely encountering a "good citizen with a gun" may have been a factor in the incident cited in the OP.

How long will it take for the New Jersey Highway Patrol, for example, to give up the long-ingrained cultural assumption that if you carry a gun in NJ and don't have a badge then you're almost certainly up to no good?

This same cultural bias will likely be an issue with non-officers in these states, too...authority figures like prosecutors, politicians, health care providers, dispatchers, citizens with Karen tendencies, etc.

At least for a while.

@lemaymiami , were you an active LEO when Florida first began shall-issue CCW? How did shall-issue affect officer attitudes and actions back then? And the attitudes of others?

I retired out in 1995 so we’ll before the armed citizen movement… Don’t believe I ever encountered a good guy carrying concealed who wasn’t a cop of some kind…

Jeff White said:

Here is a fun fact for you; LE is often shot by responding LE even happens to uniformed officers.

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As an aside, after my last employer read a study about OIS and where the officers wore their badges, our plainclothes and off-duty officers were mandated to wear badges on chains hanging around necks rather than badges clipped on belts. It seems that the majority of LEOs shot by friendly fire were wearing belt-clipped badges rather than from neck-chains. A badge on the belt being much harder to see from even close distance...

My first instance of guns being fired by my guys while in the military, my ears were ringing so horribly that I couldn't really hear normal conversation for at least thirty minutes after the gunfire ceased (I was like the dude next to the SAW gunner in Blackhawk Down). I'm under no illusions anymore, so I'll obey the protocol to not be the guy holding a weapon should I ever again be in a situation where the cops are gonna be riding to the rescue...

Decided to weigh in on this thread because I have something to offer from experience. In Nam as a combat photographer I mostly shot a camera. Only when things got bad did the “Every Marine is a rifleman” kick in. My experience was that when you are under fire and returning fire, especially at close quarters, you absolutely lose awareness of all except the aggressor(s) you are engaged with. It is due to a combination of training and instinct. I can assure you that I such a situation you are driven be self-preservation. So, you are totally focused on staying alive. That means you are totally focused in the enemy. Even when the shooting stops you stay so focused for a short time because you want to be sure it over before you let down. While in that hyper state you might not even hear the mane next to calling your name. Your awareness is directed at the possible continuing threat. So, I can understand not obeying a command to drop a weapon while under fire or moments thereafter. This time it sucks.