Dr T
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There are times that I wish Feynman had done a Volume 4 on Exterior Ballistics and Terminal Performance...It would have been very entertaining.
some misconceptions about 357 and 44 in carbines
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Varminterror
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Ever wonder why cartridges are the size they are, traveling the speed they are with the bullets the size they are?
Joe Jack might be happy to just drive his truck home, but a lot of science went into the wheel before it became an f-150…
Since we are discussing external ballistics of a bullet the vector is equal to the path of the bullet unless you think the vector and speed the animal is moving is going to have a significant effect lol.
True but like I said a couple pages ago they have no effect on wounding which is why KE numbers aren't real important.
And some enthusiasts understand the difference between horsepower and torque so we don't put a 2 liter Indy motor in our F150
.45Coltguy
Member
Are you kidding me!? Get off your high horse and settle down man. No one, and I mean no one, cares what you're spewing here. Sounds like you're simply trying to impress yourself.
Hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving.
""Momentum is a vector quantity as it is comprised of the vector of velocity (differing from SPEED by its vector aspect)"" .
"Since we are discussing external ballistics of a bullet the vector is equal to the path of the bullet unless you think the vector and speed the animal is moving is going to have a significant effe. ct lol."
You attribute that to me, but I'm not the one who said that, though I do agree with it.
"Since we are discussing external ballistics of a bullet the vector is equal to the path of the bullet unless you think the vector and speed the animal is moving is going to have a significant effe. ct lol."
You attribute that to me, but I'm not the one who said that, though I do agree with it.
Armored farmer
Member
If a deer is running 2100fps in the same direction as the path of the bullet...... you had better use your 30-30 because I doubt your .357 carbine will ever see 2000fps.
Theoretically speaking, of course.
Theoretically speaking, of course.
It's worse than looking at either momentum or KE, first because the results are not accurate, second because it's based on nothing more than personal opinion.
Well, if you fire a rifle, the momentum is conserved, the kinetic energy is not.. otherwise the gun would grievously wound its user. Wouldn't like to be hit by a rifle recoiling at 100 mph. If you wanted an extreme example, you could set a bullet sticking out of your rifle's buttplate. When you fire, it will have the same momentum as the one coming out the muzzle. Might sting, but one will be a lot more deadly.
The reason momentum seems better is that it favors heavier bullets, which will tend to be bigger, and penetrate more. Penetration is king. The heavier and bigger the bullets, the more momentum, the harder to stop, the more penetration, the better for large game.
But it's the energy that's doing the work. This still doesn't help an average hunter comparing figures on a piece of paper.
Varminterror
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Physics does not support any of the suppositions you’ve made here.
Momentum is conserved in inelastic collisions. I provided the mathematical pathway to determine Work done (work is defined as the change in KE), which is dependent upon the conservation of momentum to determine the Work done… it’s really pretty simple.
35 Whelen
Member
When I first started handloading as a teenager, I pored over the ballistics tables at the back of my Sierra and Speer manual just to be certain I had the minimum 1000 ft. lb. of energy that the writers in shiny-paged hunting magazines said I needed. With time, age and most of all experience in the field, I realized that energy, momentum, et al. where bullets are concerned, are just meaningless numbers.
Decades after bullet energy became a "thing" people are still trying to come up with calculations to use as a gauge for how their favorite cartridge/bullet combo are going to work.
It's quite amusing, really, and I hope we get to the 6th page of this thread!
35W
Decades after bullet energy became a "thing" people are still trying to come up with calculations to use as a gauge for how their favorite cartridge/bullet combo are going to work.
It's quite amusing, really, and I hope we get to the 6th page of this thread!
35W
Well you aren't attributing quotes to anyone so it's hard to tell
But work is still equal to the change in kinetic energy, not the change in momentum. A round with more KE (and less momentum) will have more potential to do work than a round with more momentum (and less KE)...
Potential being the key word. Maybe it's a varmint load which explodes on a shoulder blade. Maybe it's a .375 solid. Either way you won't be able to tell the performance from either number...
"What caliber would you pick for a hunting rifle? 2000 ft-lbs, or 1.50 slug feet per second? Thanks."
R.W.Dale
Member
One of the biggest myths for revolver caliber carbines a lot of people fall for including myself is the idea of a plinking "special load"
While you absolutely can fire such loads the POI at any range beyond a few feet is so wildly different from magnums you essentially have to completely resight the rifle. So much so you may need a pretty wide range of sight adjustably to even make it.
While you absolutely can fire such loads the POI at any range beyond a few feet is so wildly different from magnums you essentially have to completely resight the rifle. So much so you may need a pretty wide range of sight adjustably to even make it.
I said "Well you aren't attributing quotes to anyone so it's hard to tell"I put quotes within quotation marks.
Per standard English grammar, that means they aren't attributed to me
Per standard English grammar you can certainly quote yourself or others.
Usually by preceding the quote with I said or he said or a proper name like Jim said.
someguy2800
Member
I’ve been able to find magnum and special loads that shoot to the same POI in revolvers, and been able to find varmint and hunting loads that do the same in high velocity rifles, but I’ve never had a 357 or 44 mag carbine or 45/70 that would shoot specials and magnums even remotely close. I have enough rifles now that I don’t bother anymore trying to make tiered loads for stuff.
And Ive shot about 65 feral hogs with pistol cartridges in close quarters your bolt 270 would be too slow to get half that number. Whats the actual point of your comment on a thread about 357 and 44 mag anyway?
I actually have two guns in one calibre, I run subsonics for low noise hunting(and teaching the younger folk) and hunting loads in the other. On one gun I have a quick detatch scout scope for long shots and peep sight for close range.
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Taylors KO factor was originally theorized for head shots on elephant where bullets narrowly miss the brain, and his claims were pretty much debunked. Taylor intimated missed brain shots still resulted in the elephant being knocked out and the heavier the calibre the longer the 'knockout' period could be predicted. While this can occur its pretty much been proven there is no reliability to it, in fact the vast majority of shots which miss the brain, the elephant stays on its feet and runs.
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Its normal for a pistol cal thread. The rifle guys log on claiming the cartridges are underpowered , the handgun guys quote momentum, then we throw whatever highschool math we can remember at each other for 4-5 pages
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To quote Art, "y'all are picking fly poop out of pepper." Some of y'all have to learn that other people just have to be wrong, or right, no matter what. Take a deep breath and let them go on their way, you will be better for it. But I get it, the internet is serious business and there wrongs that must be addressed...
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