Is "six" still enough for defense?

357smallbore,

If you only fire 5 shots or less, then it is enough. If you fire your 6th shot and still have to fire again, it was not enough.

I am not trying to be sarcastic, just realistic.

I carry a 9m.m. most of time, when I am able to . The military and all law enforcement agencies that I know of issue semi-auto pistols and that should point you in the right direction. I am not saying that you cannot solve a problem with a revolver or with 5 or 6 shots, but why place the odds against you. I keep a S&W model 15 (a six shot .38 Special) at home as a back up to my usual 9m.m. or .40 S&W home gun, so I am not against them, but I think 15 shots is better than six and a mag exchange is faster than a speed-loader and much faster than a speed strip.
Also, you usually cannot get night sights on a revolver.

I like the RUGER Speed Six very much. I use .38 Special FEDERAL HST in mine. I think it will work just as well as a .357 magnum round for self defense and be much easier to control and have shorter recovery time between shots.

Just my experience.

Jim

Agreed, but you're pretty much limited to it here. What else is there? Day to day life in places where you aren't supposed to have a gun is the real test. If you're pulling that off, you must be doing something right.

I still belive how you carry yourself and act has as much or more to do with this than just how you carry it. If you look like and act like you belong there, and aren't doing something wrong, people will pay you little mind. Look out of place, act uncomfortable or like you're up to something, and they will pick up on that pretty quick, especially if they are paying any attention. Many, if not most, don't.

Speaking of concealment, I've carried openly at times in urban rather that rural or wilderness areas and honestly have never caused a panic or had someone call the cops and only maybe a half dozen times over the decades even received a comment. In all but one of those times it was from another gun owner. When I do carry openly it is always what I call discrete carry. I don't carry handguns with sloganized grips or death's heads or don't tread on me or faux flags and carry in a really plain old fashioned holster lessen I'm going to a BBQ or pachanga.

Even when I carry concealed it is certainly more discrete conceal than hidden and I honestly have never much worried about printing. For the last 20 years or so it's been shorts and a Hawaiian Print, a fishing shirt or a guayabera.

What I have seen and seen regularly for at least a half century now is the the general public are oblivious to their surroundings. And that is far truer today than in the past. People simply don't really see their surroundings.

Talking weight, once we get bigger than a pocket gun a revolver is probably as heavy or heavier than a Glock, even a full size like the Glock 22

An example:
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/smith-wesson-model-19-carry-comp-3-vs-glock-g22-gen4
Model 19 is 34 ounces
Glock 22 is 26 ounces

Another:
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/glock-g22-gen4-vs-taurus-605-3
Taurus 605 with 3'' barrel is 24 ounces (okay 2 whole ounces less)

One more:
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/glock-g22-gen4-vs-ruger-gp100-wiley-clapp-3
Ruger GP100 3'' is 36 ounces

And since some prefer a compact versus a full size Glock, a Glock 19 is smaller and lighter than a Colt Python 3''
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/glock-g19-vs-colt-python-3
Glock 19 is 24 ounces (touché on the Taurus 605 - and 16 rounds versus 6)
Colt Python 3'' weighs like a full size steel 1911 (if you don't know ya gotta click if you want to find out)

CDW4ME said:

Talking weight, once we get bigger than a pocket gun a revolver is probably as heavy or heavier than a Glock, even a full size like the Glock 22

An example:
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/smith-wesson-model-19-carry-comp-3-vs-glock-g22-gen4
Model 19 is 34 ounces
Glock 22 is 26 ounces

Another:
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/glock-g22-gen4-vs-taurus-605-3
Taurus 605 with 3'' barrel is 24 ounces (okay 2 whole ounces less)

One more:
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/glock-g22-gen4-vs-ruger-gp100-wiley-clapp-3
Ruger GP100 3'' is 36 ounces

And since some prefer a compact versus a full size Glock, a Glock 19 is smaller and lighter than a Colt Python 3''
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/glock-g19-vs-colt-python-3
Glock 19 is 24 ounces (touché on the Taurus 605 - and 16 rounds versus 6)
Colt Python 3'' weighs like a full size steel 1911 (if you don't know ya gotta click if you want to find out)

Click to expand...

I agree with you that weight is part of conceal ability, but only part. I have a Taurus 605. It has the same footprint as a 637. If a 357 mag energy level is desired the extra weight is welcomed over the airweights.
I will never say it is a bad thing to have more available rounds (in the gun) you just need to conceal those rounds also.
That is why I'm really liking many of these newer model micro 9s. With 10&11 rounds that fit with less space than a G19 and similar sized carry guns. They shoot well too....

WisBorn said:

I pocket carry! I like this type of carry because it is comfortable, works well with my attire, is not noticeable, and allows me to place my hand on my firearm in uncomfortable situations.

Click to expand...

This is a superb example of why focusing on round count in a vacuum is meaningless. It's like people who think the tank with the bigger gun or thicker armor is automatically superior. In reality, it's the "soft factors" that typically matter more.

Soft factors like what WisBorn mentions. A 5/6 shot pocket snub or 6/7 shot pocket auto may not have the "hard factor" of a 15+1 IWB auto, but the fact that I can have my hand on the pocket snub on the mere suspicion of needing it, without others seeing it, is an advantage that can't be summarily dismissed. How many shots is a potentially faster draw worth?

As others have mentioned, another soft factor is "which one do you shoot better?"

It's like asking if a 3 gallon air tank or a 7 gallon air tank is better. It depends.

These are some of the "soft factors" to me....

Which one you shoot the best with is the first and foremost thing to me. If you cant shoot the gun well, however you might need to shoot it, what good is it?

Can you shoot it quickly, accurately, and repetitively? Can you shoot it instinctively, with and without sights? Can you shoot it while you move and still make good hits while doing so? Have you ever tried any of that?

If it doesnt have enough ammo on board to solve whatever you might get, not just what you planned for, based on who knows what, what then?

If you cant quickly and easily draw and shoot it, from most any position, what good is it? Can you quickly draw it while seated? From odd positions? How about while moving? Can you do it on the sly, even when your hands cant be on the gun?

As far as having your hand on the gun goes, how many who insist this is better, have ever actually drawn and fired their gun from that and worked on different possible situations doing so? Or is the first time you actually might need it, going to be the first time you try?

Have you considered what will happen if the other guy is close to you and your hand is in your pocket? What if you need that hand to deal with whats coming and the gun isnt yet appropriate and/or going to beat the rush? You do understand how fast someone can move on you when they are close and you have to react to that, right? Do you want that hand trapped in that pocket?

Can you quickly access the gun with your hand "out" of the pocket from the start? Have you tried that in the past with a "loaded" gun in practice?

Do you practice reloads regularly, should they be needed, if even possible? Reloads arent always just "extra ammo", they can be function related as well.

Do you practice malfunction drills and know what to do should you get one? Do you have to think about doing them?

Round count is simply round count. When you need it, you need it, and you either have it or you dont, and if you dont, what are your preconceived plans going forward? Assuming youve given it some thought.

If you believe 5 or 6 is fine, 17 is simply a cushy buffer for when it isnt, and carrying 17, is really no more difficult than carrying 5 or 6.

357smallbore said:

Is 6 rounds enough in today's America

Click to expand...

Plenty enough-until you need seven. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Somebody gets it.

So maybe someone has already said it but, why only have one weapon on you!

A six-shooter could be a backup for a rifle. One could have two six-shooters and a boot gun. Whatever ...

Lord knows that a lot of fellows in the "wild west" carried two revolvers. Didn't Doc Holliday carry two, or shotgun and revolver ... and a nasty knife. Folk back when would on in a holster on their dominant side plus a cross-draw. I know that Doc Holliday had multiple "favorite" revolvers. My dad's dad carried only one revolver, but then he was one deadly shot.

At home, I've often got some revolver or chopped 9mm dropt in a pocket, the purpose of which is to buy me time to get to a shotgun or rifle, i.e. a REAL weapon.
.

So have you guys figure it out yet?

“A weapon is a tool," she repeated, a little breathlessly. "A tool for killing and destroying. And there will be times when, as an Envoy, you must kill and destroy. Then you will choose and equip yourself with the tools that you need. But remember the weakness of weapons. They are an extension--you are the killer and destroyer. You are whole, with or without them.” - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon <-Spectacular modern Noir/Cyberpunk novel, the first of an exceptional trilogy.

"When your mind is a weapon, you are never unarmed" - Malcolm X

Until you run out of ammo and someone shoots you in the mind (oh, the brain - mind/body problem strikes again).

If the person who is put into a must-defend situation sends a .357 mag or heavy large-bore round into the aggressor, then maybe another round from the same weapon, one imagines that the aggressor will be more than a trifle compromised. At the very least, the aggressor will be rather "distracted" let us say. Now with four rounds remaining, a second aggressor could be sent a lead message or two. Time has now been purchased for the victim to retreat to find a long-arm or use a speed-loader to renew the previous 6-count.

The more rounds the merrier to be sure. Can't deny that. Yet, using an effective cartridge with a follow-up or five can't be said to be strikingly ineffective either.

The .38 Special can be said to be too little defense. I have a tendency to concur, the reason being that many attackers are in this sick day and age are on a cocktail of brain-numbing chemicals added to alcohol. Police report that .38 and 9mm rounds are not stopping psycho-felons.

When I've had a .357 by my side, I didn't feel under-served ... especially given that after engaging any aggressor, I had a pump shotgun to which I could run.
--------------------------------------------------

I knew a senior agent who would not give up his S&W Model 13 .357 magnum for the semi-auto then being issued. He said that his revolver had gotten him safely out of 3 fights and he was keeping it. I guess six rounds was enough for him. I however carried the issue Glock 22 or a Glock 21 with 2 spare mags, and more mags in the vehicle (plus an M-4 and an MP-5/10 in vehicle).



Now that I am retired, my outlook on things has changed a bit. I am content to throw a G27 in a pocket, or carry my Combat Commander and a spare mag. My job now is to get away from the problem and protect my family as I do so...no more expectation of running towards the gunfire. I suppose having only six would not worry me much now. I am also careful of where I go because I can pick and choose these days.

Seven pages of replies!! Hahahahaha!!
When I saw the title, I knew it’d be a doozy!
I’ll chip in my two cents, too.

Six rounds is enough
… until it isn’t.
Life is full of unknowns and surprises, so each of us has to make their own individual decision.

So far, I have been over-armed but I realize that could change in the next minute.

If you carry less gun than me you aren't taking self-defense seriously enough and will die, shot full of holes, holding a small, empty gun, listening to the lamentations of women.

If you carry more gun than me you're paranoid and one day, after years of discomfort carrying a heavy, bulky combat load, you'll drop dramatically to the ground in permanant sciatica pain, waiting on an ambulance, listening to the lamentations of women.

In self defense shootings it takes on average two hits to incapacitate a single attacker and in those self defense shootings about a 75% hit rate. (Better than cops)
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
Using data from averages of self defense shootings, 6 shots may be insufficient for 3 attackers factoring a 75% hit rate which would be good under stress and moving targets.

But then, here are 5 examples where 5-6 hits were insufficient to quickly incapacitate a single attacker:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/do-examples-incidents-matter-to-you.902897/

It matters not to me who is pulling the trigger; the point is those individuals were not quickly incapacitated by 5-6 hits. If it happened with them, it could happen again.
I carry 15+ capacity everywhere and its not because I'm inaccurate or plan on missing, I'd rather have more bullets than I "need" than less.

I usually carry a Diamondback DB9 which is 6 + 1. I feel perfectly comfortable with this. When I am willing to carry a bigger gun it is my XDS in .45 acp. which is 5 +1 and I feel better armed than the DB9 9mm.

mcb said:

And if there are more than 6 threats?

Click to expand...

If there are more than 6 threats he will be dead before he has a chance to get 3 shots off.

The most likely scenario is that I’ll never need my gun. So carrying a gun I actually like and will practice with is the direction I go. I prefer a single action most of the time.

Update on my previous post about Chicago crime. The new scenario was for a car to pull up and 3-4 “youths” will jump out and rob/carjack you. Lately they will take your phone and keys, then stuff YOU into the trunk. This prevents you from alerting police before they can use your car to commit a murder/robbery. You have witnessed perps who may have committed murder. Guess what their plans for you? Previous wisdom was to never draw to a gun. I will NEVER get into a trunk.
The new urban norm is for 10-19 rounds of 9 mm. In rural areas 6-8 rounds may yet suffice.

Bazoo said:

The most likely scenario is that I’ll never need my gun. So carrying a gun I actually like and will practice with is the direction I go. I prefer a single action most of the time.

Click to expand...

I like my revolvers but have no interest in carrying them. You are completely correct though... carry something you like and shoot well. Shot placement, especially the first shot, is what counts. 1 shot in the head is worth more than 10 shots in the extremities. I could really care less how many rounds strangers on the internet think I should carry... I carry what I am comfortable with... not what someone else is comfortable with.

tactikel said:

Update on my previous post about Chicago crime. The new scenario was for a car to pull up and 3-4 “youths” will jump out and rob/carjack you. Lately they will take your phone and keys, then stuff YOU into the trunk. This prevents you from alerting police before they can use your car to commit a murder/robbery. You have witnessed perps who may have committed murder. Guess what their plans for you? Previous wisdom was to never draw to a gun. I will NEVER get into a trunk.
The new urban norm is for 10-19 rounds of 9 mm. In rural areas 6-8 rounds may yet suffice.

Click to expand...

Yup. Sometimes the robbery crew is 3 or 4 guys, with rifles & shotguns, bailing out of car to assault you.

You'd better be paying attention.

When I watch videos of civilians using a gun to protect themselves I often ask, "what if they had 6 shots?" And at the moment I can't think of one where it would have mattered.

As John Corria of Active Self Defense says, "The most common cause of a gun running out of ammo is missing."

As I've said before:

Since firearms experts on the Internet clearly discuss how 5 or six is enough, support us on banning any firearm that can carry more rounds or be quickly reloaded with a magazine carrying more than 6 rounds. Only rampage killers would want more capacity.
Joe, Beto, Chuck, Nancy, Diane, Kamala, Governors of NY, CA, NJ etc.