Legal? - Took potential school shooters parents guns for safekeeping

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Picture of the guns taken. Same article said the guns were taken for "safe keeping".

Same day as this, 3 were killed in a school shooting in Missouri. Could be the reason the cops were so cautious.

Again, we have been given virtually no information about this incident, and I have looked extensively. We don't know if the guns were given up voluntarily, if they were not stored properly, or if there was someone in the house that is prohibited from possession of firearms. We don't know if the cops over reacted or if they stepped over the line. Only thing we do know for sure, is that a possible and viable threat was eliminated.

Unless you have something to do with this....business.....you have no idea. And unless you work in the "management" or command, you have little idea. Suits are just a thing that happens.....all the time.
 
Of course everyone in education in Ca is involved - we have a 3 plus page long discussion about it right here.
Kid made threats - parents lost guns.

But that's just it. The requests for GVROs aren't pouring in from schools. I live in San Diego which is lauded as being a "model" for red flag. Our city attorney, a climber/aspiring politician, pumps out an impressive number of these petitions to pad her resume. But even so, the team dedicated to carrying this out claims (read the link) "I have yet to see one of these filed by a school or a workplace, and I’m grateful for that."

And as I said already, if this really was going to open pandora's box as you put it, it would already have happened outside the realm of red flag laws because anyone in education is already a mandated reporter. And when you report abuse or neglect, the lid comes off already.
 
As said in Red Dawn:
If a wolf steals your chickens, do you beat the pig because he watched?

Take the kid away not some one else's property.

The problem here is that they don't really care about what the wolf did, they are simply dreaming up a pretext to kill the pig because they want to have bacon tonight.
 
As a parent, I maybe held liable financially for my children's actions, but I am not going to be held criminally responsible for their actions unless there is proof that I am somehow culpable aka I knew about the threats and did nothing, I allowed them to have access to my firearms knowing they were a danger to themselves and others, etc.

In California, parents can be held criminally responsible for their underaged child. Parents can be held legally responsible for their minor children’s actions in both civil and criminal court. According to California Penal Code , if a parent fails to fulfill his or her “duty to exercise reasonable care, supervision, protection, and control over their minor child,” they have committed a misdemeanor crime.

You’re telling me that you’d ok with law enforcement making decisions on how they conduct their law enforcement based upon the emotions brought about by unrelated cases, rather than by following the appropriate protocol for the actual case being pursued?

Also, you say we don’t know anything about anything, and we’re just making all sorts of suppositions, but can you tell me how we know that a viable threat was eliminated? How is everything else observed assumption, but this observation a known fact?

Schools have been using guidelines set forth from the Secret service and the U.S. Dept of Education to discern whether threats are viable or not. Schools themselves do not only act on these threats but alert the local and applicable law enforcement agency. They too assess whether the threat is viable before acting. In this case they involved a judge, who deemed the threat viable enough to issue a search warrant. Unlike what many want us to believe, we do not have kids arrested just for eating their peanut butter and jelly sandwich into the shape of a gun anymore. Not only is a stated/posted threat part of the decision making, but pre-threat behaviors are heavily used. IOW's it took many people, with experience and professional guidance, that decided it was a viable threat. Again, the facts of how they determined it, is unknown to us.

Everyone here agrees that the threat should be investigated and stopped. That isn’t a point of contention. The questions being asked are 1. Do we know on what grounds the firearms were removed from the parents custody 2. was under lawful grounds 3. We wonder under what circumstances there was a need to confiscate the firearms being that once the kid was in custody, it would seem the threat has been neutralized.

The question asked by the OP was whether this was legal, thus was my point of contention. As you state, we don't know the answers to your 3 questions, but would they make any difference to the legality of what the police did? They had a legal search warrant that included guns as the reason for the search. Along with the 2nd Amendment protecting our RKBA, the 4th protects us from unreasonable searches and seizures. We can't claim one is Gospel and the other is moot.

Doesn't matter, and the same can be said for felons who are married or have roommates who own guns. Everyone else in the home 2nd and 4th Ammendment rights' do not just disappear because a felon, suicidal, or other alleged threat lives in the home.

In many states, that is exactly the case. Having someone living in your home and using it a a legal address, does means possession and is trouble to the prohibited person.

My whole point is and has been in this thread, that we do not know enough of the real facts to make anything else but assumptions. As with many of these types of media releases, there has not been any follow up news that I can find to clear the fog. No where have I told folks to give up their guns without proper cause, only that it is silly to think one has a choice, if and when the cops show up at your door with a warrant looking for guns. I guess there is a choice, but for an individual citizen against several squads of police....... I would not. If it's an illegal search and seizure, I will trust the same constitution that protects my RKBA, to get them back for me.
 
In California, parents can be held criminally responsible for their underaged child. Parents can be held legally responsible for their minor children’s actions in both civil and criminal court. According to California Penal Code , if a parent fails to fulfill his or her “duty to exercise reasonable care, supervision, protection, and control over their minor child,” they have committed a misdemeanor crime.
That is in all 50 states, and not just in CA. Again, that absolutely does not apply in this scenario, e.i., a child threads to bring a gun to school and shoot people.

In many states, that is exactly the case. Having someone living in your home and using it a a legal address, does means possession and is trouble to the prohibited person.crime.
I will call your bluff. Post the code to just one state that says that. I am will to bet that there are several exemption that makes it perfectly legal, but I will eagerly wait for your post, so we can see. I am open to the possibility that I could be wrong, but I do not believe I am at all.

My whole point is and has been in this thread, that we do not know enough of the real facts to make anything else but assumptions. As with many of these types of media releases, there has not been any follow up news that I can find to clear the fog. No where have I told folks to give up their guns without proper cause, only that it is silly to think one has a choice, if and when the cops show up at your door with a warrant looking for guns. I guess there is a choice, but for an individual citizen against several squads of police....... I would not. If it's an illegal search and seizure, I will trust the same constitution that protects my RKBA, to get them back for me.
While we all are aware that we do not know all of the facts, the discussion most are having is based on the assumption that they did confiscate the firearms. Everyone is debating whether it would be constitutional and/or what they would do in that situation.
 
The days of leaving guns unsecured around the house with kids in it are over...Not much else really needs to be said.
Not that they ever should have been around in the first place. Secure your firearms. It ain’t that hard.
 
Firearms are often turned over voluntarily in these cases, and often the owners are relieved to have them out of the house until the crisis is resolved. Most gun owners aren't seriously into guns and whatever crisis is going on in their home trumps the rights they are voluntarily surrendering and that's their decision to make.

Just because I have freedom of press doesn't mean I need to publish something and having freedom of speech doesn't mean I'm wrong for holding my tongue, and I'm not putting my morality on the line by allowing law enforcement to conduct a search. On the same token I'm also not wrong for exercising those same rights.
 
The question asked by the OP was whether this was legal, thus was my point of contention. As you state, we don't know the answers to your 3 questions, but would they make any difference to the legality of what the police did? They had a legal search warrant that included guns as the reason for the search. Along with the 2nd Amendment protecting our RKBA, the 4th protects us from unreasonable searches and seizures. We can't claim one is Gospel and the other is moot.

First, those two things are not in conflict, so we can claim they are both gospel. The 4th amendment protects you from unreasonable searches and seizures, that does not mean that simply because someone gets a valid warrant the actions taken are anointed and valid. It is a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition. And unlike most things in your house, your firearms have their own protection under the 2A. So it would be quite reasonable to say that even with a valid warrant (ie not a 4th amendment problem) the action still violates the 2A.

Second, we can claim one is gospel and the other is moot as much as we like, it is exactly what the progressives do to the 2A every day, so the precedent has been set.
 
I will call your bluff. Post the code to just one state that says that. I am will to bet that there are several exemption that makes it perfectly legal, but I will eagerly wait for your post, so we can see. I am open to the possibility that I could be wrong, but I do not believe I am at all.

https://www.ncesc.com/can-i-own-a-gun-if-my-husband-is-a-felon/ scroll down to the bottom of the page.

My understanding is that ownership and possession are two different things. I have a very nice Colt stainless 1911 that I bought LNIB for a great price a few years back. Friends told the girlfriend of a felon that it was just fine if the gun in their house was purchased under her name. A few weeks later, under advisement from her lawyer, she put the gun on consignment. Lucky me. In the past I have also kept guns for a period of time when the adult children of friends moved back into their house. Those adult children ad felony convictions and my friends, under advisement from their lawyer, told them to get the guns out of the house....gun safe or not.

I have a feeling we will never agree on this, or much of anything else I have had to say in this thread. So be it. Just not worth the time and effort for me anymore.
 
But that's just it. The requests for GVROs aren't pouring in from schools. I live in San Diego which is lauded as being a "model" for red flag. Our city attorney, a climber/aspiring politician, pumps out an impressive number of these petitions to pad her resume. But even so, the team dedicated to carrying this out claims (read the link) "I have yet to see one of these filed by a school or a workplace, and I’m grateful for that."

And as I said already, if this really was going to open pandora's box as you put it, it would already have happened outside the realm of red flag laws because anyone in education is already a mandated reporter. And when you report abuse or neglect, the lid comes off already.
I'm just going to add - "yet" to your first sentence of GVRO's pouring in from schools. Once the kids figure out they can start a ruckus by saying they are going to shoot up a school, then the sky is the limit.
My daughter got involved with a mess like that when she was in junior high. A fd going around her school was making false reports to teachers about abuse at home. My wife and I went to a parent/teacher conference and her teacher went beyond being rude to me. The woman wanted to shovel dirt in my face. A week later, I was contacted by children's services. Their year-long investigation ended with me getting advice to have my daughter talk to a psychiatrist because it was pretty clear she had serious issues. It ended up badly and goes well beyond the scope of this forum. Let me just say - I know firsthand what that Pandora's Box" can entail.
What better thrill for a kid seeking to make an impression on their peers than to strike out against parental authority by having the police raid their house?

Anyhow - I'm not your adversary here. You take the position that even though Red Flag laws are on the books and enable things like the OP posted to happen, it isn't much to worry about because it hasn't happened.
Once that flood does happen, it's far too late to do anything about it.

As far as the other nay sayers here - that seem to ignore the fact that Red Flag laws make it 100% legal for the police to march into your house and cart off all - and I mean all - including the ones that you will do hard time for hiding & end up losing your right to own firearms. I just feel they need hit in the face with the shovel of reality in order to see why us sane people are so dead set against Red Flag laws.

Red Flag laws allow to police to come into your home, take your property, and hold it - without you being convicted of any crime - other than owning a firearm and someone in your household saying or acting in a possibly threatening manner.
 
In many states, that is exactly the case. Having someone living in your home and using it a a legal address, does means possession and is trouble to the prohibited person.

I will call your bluff. Post the code to just one state that says that.

While it doesn't say "legal address," it does say premises where the felon lives....

Texas Law:
Sec. 46.04. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF FIREARM. (a) A person who has been convicted of a felony commits an offense if he possesses a firearm:
(1) after conviction and before the fifth anniversary of the person's release from confinement following conviction of the felony or the person's release from supervision under community supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision, whichever date is later; or
(2) after the period described by Subdivision (1), at any location other than the premises at which the person lives.

And this is just weird (to me) that "possession" and "residence" only co-occur for the period stated and 5 years thereafter. Then the felon can be in residence and not be in possession, assuming the felon doesn't have actual access.
 
How do you know what protocol was used to assess the credibility of the threat in this specific case? Are you saying protocol is always followed so you can say this with certainty? Would you say protocol was followed in Uvalde and appropriate action was taken?

My wife works at as a teacher, the whole school was evacuated because a kid made a joke about being a school shooter and immediately was taken into custody and school was searched for 2 hours by 15 police officers. He was clearly not a imminent threat. I’m not saying what they did was wrong, but just pointing out that the bar of imminent threat is extremely low, so simply because police were involved and it’s on the news doesn’t make it a clear case of clear and present danger.


In California, parents can be held criminally responsible for their underaged child. Parents can be held legally responsible for their minor children’s actions in both civil and criminal court. According to California Penal Code , if a parent fails to fulfill his or her “duty to exercise reasonable care, supervision, protection, and control over their minor child,” they have committed a misdemeanor crime.



Schools have been using guidelines set forth from the Secret service and the U.S. Dept of Education to discern whether threats are viable or not. Schools themselves do not only act on these threats but alert the local and applicable law enforcement agency. They too assess whether the threat is viable before acting. In this case they involved a judge, who deemed the threat viable enough to issue a search warrant. Unlike what many want us to believe, we do not have kids arrested just for eating their peanut butter and jelly sandwich into the shape of a gun anymore. Not only is a stated/posted threat part of the decision making, but pre-threat behaviors are heavily used. IOW's it took many people, with experience and professional guidance, that decided it was a viable threat. Again, the facts of how they determined it, is unknown to us.



The question asked by the OP was whether this was legal, thus was my point of contention. As you state, we don't know the answers to your 3 questions, but would they make any difference to the legality of what the police did? They had a legal search warrant that included guns as the reason for the search. Along with the 2nd Amendment protecting our RKBA, the 4th protects us from unreasonable searches and seizures. We can't claim one is Gospel and the other is moot.



In many states, that is exactly the case. Having someone living in your home and using it a a legal address, does means possession and is trouble to the prohibited person.

My whole point is and has been in this thread, that we do not know enough of the real facts to make anything else but assumptions. As with many of these types of media releases, there has not been any follow up news that I can find to clear the fog. No where have I told folks to give up their guns without proper cause, only that it is silly to think one has a choice, if and when the cops show up at your door with a warrant looking for guns. I guess there is a choice, but for an individual citizen against several squads of police....... I would not. If it's an illegal search and seizure, I will trust the same constitution that protects my RKBA, to get them back for me.
 
While it doesn't say "legal address," it does say premises where the felon lives....

Texas Law:
Sec. 46.04. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF FIREARM. (a) A person who has been convicted of a felony commits an offense if he possesses a firearm:
(1) after conviction and before the fifth anniversary of the person's release from confinement following conviction of the felony or the person's release from supervision under community supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision, whichever date is later; or
(2) after the period described by Subdivision (1), at any location other than the premises at which the person lives.

And this is just weird (to me) that "possession" and "residence" only co-occur for the period stated and 5 years thereafter. Then the felon can be in residence and not be in possession, assuming the felon doesn't have actual access.

it say’s “other than the premises at which the person lives”

it is saying even if the 5 year period is up you still can’t be in possession outside you home. This sub section dose not actually address where someone who lives at the same address as a felon can possess a firearm.

Just that you as a felon can’t be in possession whether you are home or not home for 5 years and after 5 years cannot be in possession after outside the home.

It dose not actually say anything about the rights of roommates, SO’s, family members, ect.

It may be addressed in a different section but not this one.
 
You take the position that even though Red Flag laws are on the books and enable things like the OP posted to happen, it isn't much to worry about because it hasn't happened.

Actually, I didn't take that position at all and in fact I've said numerous times on this forum that GVROs/red flag are the most insidious gun laws since they carve out an entirely arbitrary prohibited person category. What I *did* do was repeat information in the link I provided about the frequency of GVROs emanating from school staff, which is extremely rare.
 
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I'm late to the thread, sorry!

Working in child welfare for 20 years I've seen parents have guns removed not by choice when their children are a danger. We have a broken mental health system, it's almost impossible to commit a kid or adult against their wishes. Unfortunately, it's usually a matter of abuse and neglect that the kids are just showing symptoms of. So even if state law allows possession of the firearms, dcs will keep the child until the guns are gone from the home.

The legal and ethical standards on this are murky at best. It's an attempt to protect the community at the expense of personal liberty. HOWEVER, in my humble experience the parents have no idea what's happening with their child, any way of helping them or noticing signs, and are contributing to the dangerous behaviors of the child.
 
Actually, I didn't take that position at all and in fact I've said numerous times on this forum that GVROs/red flag are the most insidious gun laws since they carve out an entirely arbitrary prohibited person category.

Which in itself can be construed as an "arbitrary" statement. Most states have very concise procedures before issuing a GVRO or a "Red Flag" order. While I do agree that those procedures need to be thorough, I don't think they are something that is regularly done in the absence of any evidence. But then, that too could be construed as an arbitrary statement.



What I *did* do was repeat information in the link I provided about the frequency of GVROs emanating from school staff, which is extremely rare.

^^^ I agree. While those types of things are highly exaggerated on gun forums, evidence shows they are indeed quite rare. Unfortunately, in cases like the Oxford High School shooting in Michigan, staff is very hesitant to go that far.
 
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I'm late to the thread, sorry!

Working in child welfare for 20 years I've seen parents have guns removed not by choice when their children are a danger. We have a broken mental health system, it's almost impossible to commit a kid or adult against their wishes. Unfortunately, it's usually a matter of abuse and neglect that the kids are just showing symptoms of. So even if state law allows possession of the firearms, dcs will keep the child until the guns are gone from the home.

The legal and ethical standards on this are murky at best. It's an attempt to protect the community at the expense of personal liberty. HOWEVER, in my humble experience the parents have no idea what's happening with their child, any way of helping them or noticing signs, and are contributing to the dangerous behaviors of the child.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" applies here. If we accept the legitimacy of "protecting the community at the expense of personal liberty" than there is no need for search warrants, trial by jury, right to council, rules of evidence, prohibitions on double jeopardy, or presumption of innocence since all of those things just get in the way. Clearly that is not the standard we use.
 
So, other kids reported that a 12 year old threatened to shoot up his school. So the police executed a search warrant at his parents house and took a bunch of guns for safekeeping. They were not his guns but rather his parents guns who were not suspected of anything.

Perhaps this family doesn't have a gun safe that they could use to keep the guns locked up away from the student, or any way to lock them up, and that's why the police took them. I don't know the specifics. It didn't say that the parents asked law enforcement to take the guns either.

Now, if the parents had a way to lock the guns up and keep them from the kid and the police said doesn't matter we are taking them anyway for safekeeping, is that legal?

Every new gun sold comes with a gun lock. We sell individual gun locks for as low as $10.00 that are keylocked. Granted, a simple bolt cutter will defeat them. Also, keeping a minimal amount of ammo on hand and buying a $50.00 small safe will secure the ammo.

I wonder why they (local leos) didn't inform the parents and try to work with them rather than confiscate the guns. Advise them to buy a safe. Advise them to move the guns temporarily to a relative's house where the kid won't have access. Seems confiscating someone's legally owned things would be the last resort, but then, I don't work for the government.
 
Picture of the guns taken. Same article said the guns were taken for "safe keeping".

Same day as this, 3 were killed in a school shooting in Missouri. Could be the reason the cops were so cautious.

Again, we have been given virtually no information about this incident, and I have looked extensively. We don't know if the guns were given up voluntarily, if they were not stored properly, or if there was someone in the house that is prohibited from possession of firearms. We don't know if the cops over reacted or if they stepped over the line. Only thing we do know for sure, is that a possible and viable threat was eliminated.

"Minority Report" territory there. :scrutiny: :fire: We do NOT need to go there. And we can all do our own "safe keeping". ;)
 
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