Absolute fact!
Reloading for Precision shooting?
- Thread starter kmw1954
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Absolute fact!
Flags were always the first thing I packed on my way to the range!
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kmw1954
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Reading the conditions does you no good when you can't hit the target because of consistently being plagued with unexplained fliers. As was the case with the rifle I was shooting last season.
Now what does your response have to do with the question asked about measuring headspace?
His response was a way of saying learning to read the conditions has more effect than working about .002 headspace variance.
I got caught up in testing everything I could while I had a lot of free time. Actually learning to read wind well did me more good than all the little things.
Then I shot with a friend who could read it even better than me. He could out shoot me with an AR when I was running a bolt gun.
My setup was substantially more accurate on paper. He did better in the real world.
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kmw1954
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Wow I guess we can stretch the topic any which way.
My question has been answered so if you all want to continue with this line feel free.
My question has been answered so if you all want to continue with this line feel free.
jmorris
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I would try to focus on finding the explanation for the consistent…inconsistency’s.
How about you sort the ammunition you have into 3 piles, one pile is all 1.458, another pile of 1.460 and the third pile is a mix of the two. Now go shoot 3 different targets with them and see if you still have problems. If you can tell a difference, you will know what direction to go, if you cannot, you can keep looking, just in another area.
Is your problem repeatable if someone else shoots the rifle with the same ammunition?
How far off are the “fliers” from where they are supposed to be @ 100 yards and what is the diameter of say 10 shots that don’t “fly” at the same distance?
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The Savage action is a fine place to start and will compete. Wont be as nice as an aftermarket or a worked over Rem700, but will shoot small groups.
What stock is it sitting it? A good stock that you are comfortable behind can make a huge difference in just maintaining a consistent point of aim. If its plastic, I strongly suggest moving it into a decent stock or chassis, which unless you are doing something really custom, isnt that expensive anymore. If its in a factory Savage laminate stock, I would have the action bedded, which will make a big difference.
The factory Savage barrels can actually be quite accurate, but may require a light polishing after inspection with a borescope, as they are prone to coppering up because they can be a bit rough. Bullets, primers, powder over the life time of a rifle are actually the cheap part. So if you are not getting the results you want from a barrel, dont be afraid to replace it. But being that you are in WI, there are multiple outstanding barrel manufacturers (Krieger, Brux, Bartlien) so barrels are in good supply and it is worth your while to call them.
Past that? Bump the shoulders on the cases 2-3 thou, maybe start annealing for consistencies sake, stop using expander on your sizing die and switch to a mandrel, and seat your bullets 20 thou off the lands to start. From there do your normal workup, find your best group, and possibly start seating depth tests to tune the harmonics of the rifle a bit better.
You dont have to spend thousands of dollars to make a gun shoot as good as it will. The key is finding what you need to change, then making that change, so you get the best bang for your buck. You might find that just making 2 or 3 minor changes makes all the difference, but the key is to identify the thing you need to change first.
AJC1
Member
I don't think headspace is your goblin. It sounds like a situation where you may be playing in the .005 jump to .005 jam area where some are touching and some are not. I'm not saying that's the problem, but the indications sound that way. You might be riding the fence on a seating depth node which may present the same.... if you have a group of 15 rounds run one group +.005 longer keep one the same and run one group -.005.
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kmw1954
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I would try to focus on finding the explanation for the consistent…inconsistency’s.
Good advice. Though I did run a post on this very subject over a year and a half ago. Got lots of conjecture but no definitive explanations.
For instance would shoot groups over the chrono and there would always be one shot that was 50-80mph faster or slower that all others. One shot that was noticeably outside the rest. High, low, right, left. no rhyme or reason. To the point that now I can usually call a shot that was pulled or dropped. Was this problem repeatable, No it was not. Even with the chrono there was no pattern to it.
So as was suggested earlier and to which I replied to I did continue to sort this brass into two groups of which I intend to shoot just as you suggest. To see for myself as it were. Seeing the reason for the question was I had never been actually able to measure the shoulder lengths. Before I finished I also ended with a third group that was 1.462" after sizing. I set those aside also and was then able to adjust the die down and get them to where I wanted them. My thinking is to shoot 15 of each, the target length, the short ones and then a mix.
At this point in this discussion I am beginning to feel as if I may be chasing my own tail. But once again as not ever having the provision to actually measure like this before I was amazed to find this much variation so I had to ask the questions, Is this Normal? Does it truly make a difference. I never thought those two questions could get so complex that we needed advice and then an explanation for reading the wind. What's next my breathing and heart rate? My posture at the bench, my inconsistent trigger pull?
How far off are the fliers? Depends on the distance being shot but usually out of group by .5" and not always with every group would there be a flier.. Lastly since I moved to the new gun with the new barrel the fliers have pretty much disappeared so I an thinking it was the old barrel. Though I still see some high ES when shot over the chrono which I am now attributing to the component choice.
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kmw1954
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Sorry for the tangent.
To make this much more simple maybe the question should have bee asked as "what is a suitable parameter for shoulder length measurements?" Targeted length or +/- what?
To make this much more simple maybe the question should have bee asked as "what is a suitable parameter for shoulder length measurements?" Targeted length or +/- what?
243winxb
Member
1.460" +/- .001" Measured head to datum. If a crush fit is felt while closing the bolt, bump. 001" more.
When the shell holder makes contact with the bottom of the fl die, head to datum is better controlled.
Redding Competition shell holders help with this.Redding Competition Shellholders are packaged in five piece sets in .002” increments (+.002”, +.004”. +.006”, +.008” and +.010”). Each shellholder makes head to datum LONGER.
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kmw1954
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While at the bench sizing these the other night I asked myself just this. Is it time to move up to a better shellholder and maybe even a better sizing die.
What are you using right now? I dont think that will honestly make a huge difference. Unless the die is machined wrong, I dont think a Redding sizes any different than a Lee.
Bullet seating is another story. The guide sleeves that Forster, Redding and Hornady use I do feel help concentricity, and definitely make it easier to seat a bullet. But you also have to consider having a seater stem that fits the bullet in use properly.
lightman
Member
What brand of dies and shell holder are you using now? Have you made any effort to time how long you leave the case in the die after sizing but before pulling it out. This may or may not make a difference but doesn't hurt. I usually run the case up into the die and count thousand one, thousand two before extracting the case from the die.
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kmw1954
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What I am using now is Lee and moving the shellholder back and forth between presses.
AJC1
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You stated an indication that you may not have caught or realized. If you had to adjust your die, the brass has different hardness. Those would definitely get removed from my group.
I dont feel thats an issue. The die will do the job. The shellholder will do the job. I have Lee, Hornady, and Redding dies and Hornady and Lee shell holders. The dies? Yep, they all work. The only difference Ive seen with the Lee vs Hornady shell holders is that the Lees are just a hair looser.
I know some people double strike on sizing. Size once, turn case 90 or 180 degree, size again. But as long as the die and shell holder is machined right, its probably an old wives tail.
AJC1
Member
Switching presses for the same operation is inducing a change that is not required. If your sizing on one and seating on another then swapping shell holders doesn't matter. Keeping a shell holder per die will be the ticket.
AJC1
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The shell holder you size with is important to keep with the sizing die if your locked down.
JFrank
Member
Guys
I believe we’ve already had this conversation, it takes about three firings for brass to completely form, until that happens there may be slight inconsistencies, early annealing may be a contributor to the tiny variations while sizing and to put it in perspective .002 is about a human hair that you will never see on paper or shoot the difference. Mixed brass however can have mixed capacity that you WILL indeed see not only on paper but it will show on a chronograph as well.
I have several examples to base my post on in fact I recently had an average of 40 fps difference in two lot numbers of Lapua brass.
Additional things that cause errant shots are weak ignition or firing pin springs, the receiver may not like the primers being fed, or really light neck tension that seems to be popular on line may not be what the load combination prefers etc.
I believe we’ve already had this conversation, it takes about three firings for brass to completely form, until that happens there may be slight inconsistencies, early annealing may be a contributor to the tiny variations while sizing and to put it in perspective .002 is about a human hair that you will never see on paper or shoot the difference. Mixed brass however can have mixed capacity that you WILL indeed see not only on paper but it will show on a chronograph as well.
I have several examples to base my post on in fact I recently had an average of 40 fps difference in two lot numbers of Lapua brass.
Additional things that cause errant shots are weak ignition or firing pin springs, the receiver may not like the primers being fed, or really light neck tension that seems to be popular on line may not be what the load combination prefers etc.
Varminterror
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How wide are your flyers? It’s quite possible - even quite likely - that flyers outside of the group can be environmental. Getting pushed an extra inch at 300 doesn’t take much shift in wind. If you’re flinging 8” flyers, maybe… but if they’re just cruising outside the group, don’t dismiss the wind out of hand.
Are these flyers happening with the musical chairs bullets? Or with all? How’s your trigger weight vs. your rifle weight?
Flyers are USUALLY shooter POA, trigger control, wind, and neck tension - in that order (once you’ve cleared the bar of using quality bullets). I’ll back that up for a second to also add “insufficient shot count,” meaning guys see a few shots bundled and one spread and think it’s a flyer, but shooting 10-15, or 20 rounds would cut a round group which includes all of them. Remember, just under 70% of shots fall within +/-1 standard deviation from center, and 95% of shots fall within 2SD’s. So you can be
*The Redding competition shellholders are a cool tool, but aren’t really doing anything you’re not already doing with other shellholders. I’m absolutely comfortable saying shellholders aren’t causing your flyers. Basic dies might not deliver appropriate neck tension for your needs, but a mandrel expander can help remedy that - I’m exceptionally hesitant to say it takes anything more expensive than Lee dies to deliver smaller than 3/4moa out of a Savage 12. Chase the rabbits which get you fed.
Don’t be too hard on that rifle either. I have a factory Savage 12 in 223 which will print 5 rounds into the .1’s-.3’s even with cheap crap factory ammo.
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kmw1954
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Who said anything about switching presses for the Same Operation?
jmorris
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I just read an article that measured high end “match” factory ammunition.
The variances seemed high to me, IIRC double what your getting. I looked for it a bit but haven’t stumbled across it again yet.
AJC1
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You said you switched presses, I covered both basis in my response, sentence one or two.
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kmw1954
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Yes I can agree that some fliers can be wind driven but many times POI will indicate a wind push. Many that I define as fliers defy the wind push. Meaning if the wind is crossing from the left then the bullet shouldn't have gone further left.
Not certain I follow the expression musical chairs bullets? or all? It was an issue with all bullets fired. 2 seperate Savage rifles. Last year (which presented the most issues) is a Savage Model 10 223 that was purchased used with unknown round count. Added a Savage target spring to the trigger, less than 2lbs. This years rifle, a Savage model 11 223 with a Model 12 Varmint barrel, Boyd's At-One stock, Athlon Helos scope with the same Savage target trigger. Don't know the weight but it is not light. This combination has greatly reduced the number and frequency of unexplained shots.
Am finally after almost 3 ears now getting to the point when I pretty much know when an errant shot was all me and I freely admit those. Lastly I think the model 10 is just about done and the model 11 with the new Model 12 barrel was a vast improvement. Hoping to replace the model 10 barrel with a Shilen 223 with a 7.5:1 and hoping that is the next step up.
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