AR-15 what’s the logic?

My range just added a 380 yard target stand. That is because they ran out of land to go farther. I am looking forward to trying it out when the weather improves some. To go to an actual 1000 yard range would require a 175 mile one way drive and I have no idea of the membership fees. On the other hand 35 miles put me on BLM land where I can use the caprock for a backstop (about a 300' tall stop) and shoot to my heart's content for free choosing up to about 1/2 mile for a distance. I can shoot straight down an unused caliche road as it's played out oilfield. Traffic is seldom and never.

I will stay out of the twist and weight war as I know what works best for my one lonesome AR and will stick with that.
 
I'm pretty sure your average AR purchaser isn't going to do that much work before they buy a $750 AR. I think mostly they're looking for the cheap seats.
Hence the flawed premise of the thread a budget 16" 1:9 barrel won't shoot cheap 55gr FMJ enough better if any than a budget 1:7 barrel for the average guy to care.
So just like @Varminterror said back on page 1.
"The reality is simple. 1:9” barrels don’t actually shoot lighter bullets any better than 1:7” - especially in short 16” barrels - so consumers want versatility, whether they’ll ever make use of it or not."
 
I've read enough anecdotal reports from users that I believe 1:7" works with 55gr pills by accident, not by design. By design, they work best with 1:8 or greater. Many guns seem to have a problem with 1:7 on lighter bullets, and they're not always AR15's. Barrel length is a factor too.

My AR15 is 1:8" and I wouldn't have it any other way.
 
I still prefer a 20" 1/9 twist if I were building a benchtop shooter looking for sub-moa accuracy with 55 gr.

But 1/7 will shoot everything well from 55 grain and up. And works well in shorter barrels.

99% of my shots are 55 gr. thru a 14.5" 1/7 upper and accuracy is fine. It's a pencil profile chrome lined barrel so it's NOT built for precision, but it groups well. And groups ADI w/ 69 gr. Sierra Matchking very well.

Also had a 10" 1/7 upper, that also grouped 55 gr. well.

Some calibers can be kinda partial to twist rates, IMHO not so much with .223/5.56.
 
I put together my AR a few years ago. The goal was to go as cheap as possible. In that pursuit, I bought a slightly used Bushmaster HBAR 16” upper with chrome lined 1/9.
This is 100yds, standing offhand, using PPU M193 55gn and the Hakko 3x scope.
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Can get 2 of them for $1000 no problem. If you really bargain shopped for parts I think building three for $1000 is still probably doable, but it’s going to be bargain basement blem quality parts.


Why not 1 good rifle instead of 3 sub par?
 
Why not 1 good rifle instead of 3 sub par?

thats a choice each guy has to make I guess and depends what constitutes good. Maybe you need multiple calibers or need rifles for multiple family members? My personal builds range from $400 in parts including sights to $1500 in parts including optic. I probably average around $600 to build one to my preferences with a basic optic.
 
Late to the game on this one, but to repeat what's already been said, there really is no downside going to a 7 twist.

If you are planning on shooting mostly super lightweight varmint bullets that could be an issue. But then again why are you buying a cheap AR15 to do that?
 
Love that George Bernard Shaw quote (post #41...). this is from a guy who routinely tows a small skiff 93 or more miles one way to meet my customers when I'm booked to guide them - for the past 27 years now... Yep, towing small skiff around 20,000 miles a year. Most wouldn't consider doing that .. - me, I'm comfortable with it since I get to live where it's nice and fish in the salt and brackish portions of the Everglades... real jungle environment complete with lots and lots of biting insects..

Pardon the diversion - the rest of you can go back to your discussion... Considering that topic, though, what was the actual twist rate of the original black rifle when the Army was considering adopting it all those years ago... The one that was said to produce horrific wounds since the round keyholed on impact with flesh?
 
I wish I could be content at that level, I either end up selling off the budget build for lack of interest or nickel and dimeing them into a grand.

I have fairly basic taste and I'm a pretty good shopper. I havn't found a use for $400 forends. This is the last one I built. I have $585 in it from magazine to optic. I normally don’t use red dots because I have an astigmatism, but I bought 7 different red dots while everything was on sale for Christmas and this Bushnell, which was the cheapest, was also the clear winner. As my farmer friend used to say, more expensive ain’t always gooder.

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Some idiot about ten years ago published a now infamous thing called “the chart”.

All this chart did was compare features to a Colt 6920 “mil-spec style” AR15. If it had the same features as the 6920, it was good. If it varies from the 6920 specs, it was “bad.” And the internet fanboys ate this chart up and straight up demanded from manufacturers that they comply with the “chart” . Basically, it made 1/9 twist a thing of the past.

I’m with you. I blast 55 grain all day long. I would actually prefer a 1/12 twist, which would stabilize 55 grain perfectly. It would also make my preferred M193 ammo more effective via yawing in human soft tissue, for defensive use.

It’s a shame that more manufactures don’t make and sell 1/9, 1/10, and 1/12 twist 5.56 barrels.
 
I have fairly basic taste and I'm a pretty good shopper. I havn't found a use for $400 forends.
I think I am as well and don't own anything with a name brand forend, the last couple have been fairly cheap Matrix Arms. My problems come from using that smidge better barrel and then found the Larue MBT2 trigger and their price break to buy multiple so all my ARs have that or better trigger. Then there's the glass with it's ability to be moved from rifle to rifle so when I would upgrade things would get passed down so now the 22LR SBR upper has a 300+ dollar Crimson Trace 1-5X on it lol.
But I do the same thing with ammo too haven't shot any FMJ 223 or 5.56 in years, I've got a bunch of the old AE 50gr grey tip varmint that was at the time 20 cents more a box than the AE FMJ was and then at Christmas I got a bunch of the Frontier 55gr open tip match that was on sale at Midway for the same price as FMJ was.
 
I live in a big city and have 4 longer range ranges within an hour drive. Two of then are about 15 minutes from my house and have 1000 yards and just under 1400 yards ranges.

Just because someone lives in a city, doesn't mean they don't have access to long range.
 
First off, you are totally gaslighting me. If it's a cute popular buzzword these days, it's because such a common tactic. You're blaming everyone else for not being interested in a sport that is not readily accessible to them. That's gaslighting. I'm not going to drive 3-4 hours to shoot a rifle. I shouldn't have to and, when I was younger, I didn't have to in fact. But over the decades, the game has changed and now I'm expected to. well screw that. if the rifle manufacturers want me to be interested in any of their products, maybe they should invest some of their profits into constructing shooting ranges near the large cities so that city folk can actually use the rifles they want us to purchase rather than trying to convince us that driving 3-4 hours to shoot is normal and expected. I'm not saying I'm done with it all right now, but it's clearly coming.

Just say your not interested in shooting enough to commit to drive 3-4 hours to do it. Nothing wrong with that. When lived in the city I used to drive at least 1-2 times a month either 1.5 or 3 hours to a shooting club I was a member of, or to my father in laws farm to shoot. I moved out of the city about 10 years ago and bought property where I built my own 300 yard range at home. If its important enough to you then you will find a way. If its not important to you, well its nobody else's fault. I also drive 3-5 hours to go fishing 2-10 times a year.

Where I had to draw the line is going out west to snowmobile. I'm willing to put in the effort to maintain my snowmobile and ride it locally, but driving 16 hours to idaho to snowmobile is too much for me. I don't want to do it enough for that and that's fine. I know guys that make 6 trips out there a winter and I am happy they are passionate enough for that commitment.
 
Make mine a 1/7”. She’s sighted in for the (expensive) 77g but shoots just fine with 55g for closer range practice. She’s my 0-500y piece with the LPVO. upload_2023-1-21_18-42-55.png

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Just say your not interested in shooting enough to commit to drive 3-4 hours to do it.
I have invested many thousands of dollars and countless hours into this activity. It isn't factual to say that I'm not interested in shooting. It is factual to say that it is a giant PIA to shoot long distances, and especially when a long distance shooting range is not located close by. This was more of a response to post #4 in this thread than anything:
Most customers have visions of shooting 80 gr low drag bullets at 1000 yds with a $500 16” carbine. Then they really just end up blasting 55 gr fmj at 25 yds.

I think most people who buy an AR15 would absolutely love to shoot it out to its or their maximum effective range but it isn't really possible if you aren't fortunate enough to live somewhere where long distance rifle ranges are basically right out your backdoor. That's how it used to be for me. I did a lot more shooting back then. You can tell me how it's my fault for not being motivated or dedicated enough all you want but it's not that, it's just reality. If you have to drive 3-4 hours to do something, you're not going to be as highly motivated to do that thing as you would be if you only had to drive 30-60 minutes to do it.
And then you compound this problem with greedy price gouging courtesy of the people that we've made rich over the years. And, as if that wasn't enough, then you get even more friction from a certain political party that wants to make your life difficult because you cherish a lawful constitutional right that they would like to abolish for whatever reason. For example, the first AR15 I ever built was a 300 blackout pistol with a brace. And now I have to choose between taking it apart or putting my name on that political party's naughty list. WOW! So much fun!!! I can hardly wipe the grin off my face.
And then I watch these youtube videos of "fellow patriots" telling me how the tree of liberty needs watered because of that other political party's position on the 2A and so I guess I'm expected to dutifully join the cause because second amendment? No. Hell no. But again, WOW!!! So much fun! Civil war.

Maybe I would rather just go for a run or go to the gym. That's a 10 minute drive, it's a hell of a lot cheaper and I don't end up looking like the poor fellow in post 90.

Then again, once spring comes, perhaps I'll have a happier outlook. That's also definitely possible. And that's all I have to say about that.
 
Wow, a discussion about twist rates for the .223 Remington/5.56x45mm and I didn't join until the 4th page!

1) The 1-7" twist is more versatile than a 1-9", especially with the short 16" carbines having the majority of the AR-15 market these days. There's definitely a lot of "mil-spec" influence there, but I for one don't mind having the faster twist barrel. My Colt 6920 will shoot as well as reasonably expected with everything from good 55gr FMJ ammo up to the 77gr Sierra or Nosler match bullets I used to use in Highpower matches.

2) As already mentioned, the quality of various 55gr FMJ bullets is incredibly variable. When I first acquired my Colt, 5.56/.223 ammo was very hard to come by, being sometime during one of the Obanic-buying sprees. I distinctly remember getting my hands on some American Eagle ammo that was all over the target at 100 yards. It was really frustrating until I started using different ammo. My best guess is that the bases of the bullets looked a lot like the samples posted earlier in this thread, or the bullets were marginally undersized in diameter. At the same time, I have a small stash of Indepence 55gr FMJ that the Colt will shoot into perfectly acceptable 1.5-MOA groups at 100 yards.

3) Fast-twist barrels can still shoot lighter bullets accurately. When I used to shoot Highpower, I would load 52gr Nosler HPBTs over W748 for 100 yard winter practice. Even with a 20", 1-7" barrel, that ammo would easily shoot sub-MOA groups, which again was perfectly acceptable when shooting from position. The same barrel would also (probably) shoot sub-MOA at 600-yards with the long 80gr Nosler HPBT bullets. (I say probably because I never bench rested that combination at 600 yards, it was always fired from sling-supported prone.)

4) The 1-9" twist barrel is a bit of a compromise. It may shoot marginally better with marginal 55gr FMJ bullets. It may shoot marginally better with marginal 62gr steel tip bullets. At shorter lengths it can't be counted on to reliably stabilize long 75gr and heavier match bullets. For my money, I'd rather have the confidence of knowing my rifle will stabilize the longer bullets, and then see what it will do with shorter bullets. My CZ527FS shoots great with 65gr Sierra Gamekings, 69gr Nosler HPBTs, 75gr Hornady HPBTs and 55gr Nosler Varmeggedon flat-based HPs. It even gets OK accuracy with good 55gr FMJ ammo. But in the back of my head I know it may or may not stabilize any of the 77gr match bullets available.

5) After all of that, you never know what will shoot well in your rifle until you actually try it. I know of one shooter who had an expensive fast-twist match barrel installed on a bolt-action, chambered in .223 Remington, and for some reason it wouldn't group acceptably with anything other than 53gr Sierras.

And I always thought a 1-8" twist barrel was the sweet spot for a .223 Remington barrel. I had one on my Service Rifle for a while that I really liked, until it started throwing random 8s at 600 yards at the end of its life.
 
I have invested many thousands of dollars and countless hours into this activity. It isn't factual to say that I'm not interested in shooting. It is factual to say that it is a giant PIA to shoot long distances, and especially when a long distance shooting range is not located close by. This was more of a response to post #4 in this thread than anything:

I said not interested enough. I didn't say not interested at all. It is not factual to say shooting long range is a giant PIA. I drive way farther than that to go fishing, to visit friends and family, to go to concerts, to go racing, to go on family vacations, to go snowmobiling, ect... I do it because it is worth the effort to me. If its not worth the effort to dedicate a Saturday and a tank and a half of gas to go shooting, then it just isn't important enough to you, and there is nothing wrong with that. That's your decision and no one else's.
 
This whole thread has been quite informative. I was looking for some information on AR's, and lots of something was delivered.
Lessons Learned:
1. If my AR is worth less than $1000 then I'm just a clueless gun owner
2. If it has a 1:7 barrel, then it is because I'm an ignoramus OR I want to shoot tracers
3. If I don't shoot to at least 600 meters than I'm not committed enough to shooting
4. Shooting anything at 100 meters with surplus ammo means I'm technically and mentally inept

Ouch. I guess I shouldn't admit to liking to shoot AKs either?
 
This whole thread has been quite informative. I was looking for some information on AR's, and lots of something was delivered.
Lessons Learned:
1. If my AR is worth less than $1000 then I'm just a clueless gun owner
2. If it has a 1:7 barrel, then it is because I'm an ignoramus OR I want to shoot tracers
3. If I don't shoot to at least 600 meters than I'm not committed enough to shooting
4. Shooting anything at 100 meters with surplus ammo means I'm technically and mentally inept

Ouch. I guess I shouldn't admit to liking to shoot AKs either?

It’s always interesting the conclusions with which some folks self-identify.

I don’t think any of these have been stated or implied in this thread.
 
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