unclenunzie
Contributing Member
I agree with this. Thinness aside as part of the original selling points, the trigger is what put them on the map. It doesn't need "improvement" so it can be like the usual crop of fast reset triggers.
At last....A double stack Kahr Arms.
- Thread starter dfariswheel
- Start date
- Status
dfariswheel
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 6,648
Justin Moon's original concept for the Kahr was as an off duty police semi auto pistol, able to shoot +P 9mm, with a trigger action that felt like a good S&W trigger, and like a revolver would be perfectly safe to carry even without a holster.
The long revolver-like trigger is what made the Kahr and unlike pistols like the Glock and S&W M&P it is safe to carry without worrying about fouling the trigger and having an AD.
I tell people to carry and shoot the Kahr like it's a magazine fed revolver. Anyone familiar with a DA revolver is right at home with the Kahr.
If you "grew up" with guns like the Glock the Kahr trigger may feel odd, but then so will a good DA revolver.
The long revolver-like trigger is what made the Kahr and unlike pistols like the Glock and S&W M&P it is safe to carry without worrying about fouling the trigger and having an AD.
I tell people to carry and shoot the Kahr like it's a magazine fed revolver. Anyone familiar with a DA revolver is right at home with the Kahr.
If you "grew up" with guns like the Glock the Kahr trigger may feel odd, but then so will a good DA revolver.
someguy2800
Member
Honestly I didn’t even know Kahr was still in business until I looked at their website a few months ago. I haven’t seen a gun shop that actually carried them in a long long time. When is the last time they came out with a completely new model? 15 years? I know they were originally designed to mimic a double action revolver trigger since at the time they were designed revolvers were ubiquitous, but personally I think it’s time to move on. I think most shooters now have never even shot a revolver so I don’t think the “it’s just like your revolver” marketing strategy is the way to move forward into the future. if they want to stay relevant and in business they will need to follow the money and make either a shorter DAO trigger pull like a ruger max 9, or a trigger with a wall like a shield. I don’t see many younger people today buying a premium price pistol with a trigger pull that’s completely foreign to them.
Last edited:
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
The trigger is the reason most people don't like them.
someguy2800
Member
Certainly seams to be a love it or hate it thing
Charlie98
Member
One of my business axioms is 'Do what you do, and do it really well. Don't try to be everything to everyone.' That is also followed with 'Simplicity is it's own reward.'
Kahr makes a very good compact pistol, it's simple, it's reliable, it's built well... what's not to like? People don't criticize S&W, for example, for continuing to make the same basic revolver for 50+ years now, I wouldn't criticize Kahr for continuing to make their very good pistol as long as they have. It's intended as a small, thin service or concealment pistol... you could say it took Glock, SIG, S&W years and years to catch up to Kahr, not vice versa. The fact that Kahr is now exploring a double-stack makes sense.
Either you like the Kahr trigger, or you don't... and that's OK.
someguy2800
Member
I would agree with you if kahr were selling lots of pistols, but I don't think that is the case anymore. I could be wrong on that point I guess, but 15 years ago I saw them everywhere but today even very large gun shops don't even carry them. I see used ones sit on gunbroker and armslist for weeks priced at half of msrp. I fear if something doesn't change there will be no kahr at all which I don't want to see. In the case of S&W I bet they sell 30 polymer frame semi auto's for ever revolver so I'm not sure they are a good example. They probably would have gone out of business by now if they hadn't adapted with the times.
Charlie98
Member
I don't really know what Kahrs unit sales are. I would think in the 'empty store shelves' era we've just been through, if Kahr had a warehouse full of unsold pistols, we would have seen them on the shelves regardless. As far a price, and used prices, I would hazard a guess they are much like Kimber... the Kahr reputation, in my mind, is either you get a really good pistol, or you get a really bad pistol. I've tried to deal with Kahr CS, when I had my P45, and it was so frustrating I just sold the pistol rather than deal with them, again. For that matter... when I see a Kahr in the used gun display... it's surrounded by Glocks, S&W's, Rugers, KelTecs and all the other compact and sub-compact pistols out there, too, so I don't think it's a matter of dissatisfaction with them, specifically.
I used a friend’s FFL to get into the SHOT Show the year Kahr was introduced in the early 90’s, in Dallas.
I met Justin Moon at his tiny booth in the basement with all of the nobody’s.
Since I was one of the few that gave him attention, he went over that metal pistol in detail.
I walked away so impressed with the gun and that smoooth trigger.
I just could not get past how HEAVY that gun was, and how he was aiming at the CCW market. The weight just absolutely killed it for me.
I thought the polymer pistols would overcome my objections when they came out, but the plastic rails turned me off.
Hopefully this new pistol will get it right.
I met Justin Moon at his tiny booth in the basement with all of the nobody’s.
Since I was one of the few that gave him attention, he went over that metal pistol in detail.
I walked away so impressed with the gun and that smoooth trigger.
I just could not get past how HEAVY that gun was, and how he was aiming at the CCW market. The weight just absolutely killed it for me.
I thought the polymer pistols would overcome my objections when they came out, but the plastic rails turned me off.
Hopefully this new pistol will get it right.
Charlie98
Member
I retired my Colt Government .380 when I picked up my first Kahr CW9. Dimensionally, they are quite close... but the poly Kahr, with 8 rounds of 9mm, weighed almost the same as the stainless .380 with the same 8 rounds. Win-win, in my book.
I've never been attracted to the steel Kahrs... although everyone I've talked to that has, or has had one, said they were a very sweet shooting pistol... so that has me intrigued, but not as a CCW. But... I don't know... it may be Heaven in my hands, if not so much on the belt.
Kahr CW9 on L, Colt's .380 R...
I've never been attracted to the steel Kahrs... although everyone I've talked to that has, or has had one, said they were a very sweet shooting pistol... so that has me intrigued, but not as a CCW. But... I don't know... it may be Heaven in my hands, if not so much on the belt.
Kahr CW9 on L, Colt's .380 R...
Last edited:
bannockburn
Member
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 26,289
9mmepiphany
I would definitely agree with you about the Kahr trigger. That's why I didn't have any problem fitting it in with my two other CCWs: a well used S&W Model 649 and a Model 638. All three possess decent DA triggers (with the CM9 having the longest but also the smoothest trigger), and it's relatively easy to switch off between them.
I would definitely agree with you about the Kahr trigger. That's why I didn't have any problem fitting it in with my two other CCWs: a well used S&W Model 649 and a Model 638. All three possess decent DA triggers (with the CM9 having the longest but also the smoothest trigger), and it's relatively easy to switch off between them.
Charlie98
Member
The simple mechanics of the Kahr trigger is one of the reasons why it's a rare occasion I carry anything else. Because I drill with the Kahr, to develop muscle memory, etc, I don't want to introduce a variable like a thumb safety and a cocked and locked SA trigger on a 1911. I could see swapping back and forth between a revolver of similar size, however.
Armybrat
Member
Same here.I like the triggers on mine.
Armybrat
Member
Double_J
Member
I bought my CW9 in May of 2006 and it has been flawless in terms of function. It is my "run to the grocery store" pistol due to size and weight. I don't think a double stack would work for them as they built their legacy as a thin single stack design.
someguy2800
Member
Actually I don’t see that many Kahrs in the used market, I just mean the ones I do see are often marked very low in price and still not selling. I think the people that like them tend to hang on to them for a long time, but not many people buying new ones, which doesn’t keep the lights on for a manufacturer. I would hope they keep the old ones in production because there are obviously a niche of people that like them, but I do hope they come up with something new and different to appeal to a wider audience as well.
unclenunzie
Contributing Member
It's already been publicly stated by "influencers" (aka paid spokesmen) that doublestack is coming from Kahr. What else they may be doing is up for speculation, maybe 30 SC.
chaim
Member
My complaint with Kahr becoming complacent has nothing to do with the trigger (overall, being a revolver guy, I like their triggers, especially the Elite). They have become slow to adapt. They were the first with very small subcompact and even micro-9 pistols (the MK9). They were heavy compared to larger but lightweight polymer double stack subcompacts, and they listened and basically invented the modern micro-9 with the PM9. Since then, they haven't done anything all that big. Add calibers, sure, it is nice they finally added a .45 and .380, but it wasn't much of a change (more of an evolution of their product). You are right, it did take the others a few years to catch up, but they did (and in far less than 6 years). Putting out some cheaper versions was also nice, but not really an innovation (and something they did nearly from the start, before the CM and CW series, there was the metal E-series).
The latest innovation in the micro-9 market (more a revolution at the time) is a double stack 10-12 round micro-9 that is barely wider than comparable single stack micro-9s (the SIG P365 is only 0.1" wider than the Kahr PM9), and at least in the case of S&W theirs is no wider than their single stack micro-9. The first of these was 6 years ago with the P365. In the meantime, several other companies got into the act. Is there still a market for the slightly smaller 6-7 round micro-9, of course (as evidenced by the fact that Kahr and one or two others only make the slightly smaller version, and most companies that do micro-9s do both versions). However, it is now 6 years into this trend, and Kahr is only now hinting at their first model with greater capacity.
As for your S&W example, they actually seem to have done a good job of keeping up with (and sometimes leading) the developments in the revolver market. They introduced the lightweight aluminum snub. When Taurus came out with the even lighter titanium models, S&W responded with their scandium series. They have tried their hand at carry sized (3" L-frame) .44spls, though they did cede the market for carry sized .44spl to Taurus (who has also left it a few years ago) and Charter Arms. Taurus introduces the Judge series, S&W comes out with the Governor. Taurus has the .44mag in a medium framed revolver (the Tracker), S&W has the S&W 69 L-frame .44mag. Ruger comes out with a polymer snub in the LCR, a bit later, S&W follows with their version. Is the basic design the same, yes, it is for all companies that make revolvers (not unlike autos: you have SA pistols for over 100 years, DA/SA for almost as long, and striker fired pistols have been popular for quite a few decades now), but (like autos) there have been quite a few innovations, and S&W has been on top of them. Not really similar to Kahr these past 5-10 years where they let their flagship models get behind the market and are only now starting to try to play catch-up.
lee n. field
Member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2002
- Messages
- 4,312
I concur.
I picked up a CM40 and CM9 over the past couple years. IThe triggers on them are excellent. Long, smooth, predictable.
chaim
Member
Back to speculation about the double stack since there doesn't seem to be much info out there.
I wonder if they will come out with something like the P365, Hellcat, Shield Plus, etc. It would compete with their core offerings, and they'd likely have to cut prices on the likes of the PM9 to keep sales like many other companies who do both have done. I'm wondering if instead of a PM9 Plus double stack, they may look more towards the P365XL example. Something a little larger, more in size like a traditional subcompact, but with 12-15 round capability, wouldn't cannibalize their existing sales, could still be among the thinnest in its class, still be nicely concealable, while giving them something to compete with other manufacturers. In fact, the more I think about it, I'd prefer they do this. If they do a PM9 Plus, I have no need for it (my P365 is more than sufficient, and I'm thinking about a Shield Plus even though I don't need it). If they do the slightly larger version, that could be interesting.
I wonder if they will come out with something like the P365, Hellcat, Shield Plus, etc. It would compete with their core offerings, and they'd likely have to cut prices on the likes of the PM9 to keep sales like many other companies who do both have done. I'm wondering if instead of a PM9 Plus double stack, they may look more towards the P365XL example. Something a little larger, more in size like a traditional subcompact, but with 12-15 round capability, wouldn't cannibalize their existing sales, could still be among the thinnest in its class, still be nicely concealable, while giving them something to compete with other manufacturers. In fact, the more I think about it, I'd prefer they do this. If they do a PM9 Plus, I have no need for it (my P365 is more than sufficient, and I'm thinking about a Shield Plus even though I don't need it). If they do the slightly larger version, that could be interesting.
Charlie98
Member
+1
Charlie98
Member
While everything you said about revolvers is true, it is also... as you said... simply an evolution of their own product. Kahr might be a victim of their own technology... it's already slim and light... there really isn't anywhere to go with it, except as a double-stack.
While a lot of the makers are trying to innovate and release better pistols... and I'll admit, everyone is giving it a good go at it... I take something like the Hellcat Micro OSP, which I had an opportunity to shoot recently. What an awful pistol! While it has a lot going for it on paper, it was a handful in actuality... with poor geometry and an awful trigger. I was shooting it because it's owner thought there was something wrong with the pistol, it shot so poorly, and wanted me to give it a try. I joke that I had to run 2 magazines through my Kahr to feel better about myself afterwards. I understand that is only anecdotal, and just my tongue-in-cheek 'review' of it... and that everyone has their own favorite.
I'd like to see a double-stack CW9, personally. If they can keep the grip dimensions under control, and allow it to use the same holsters as the single-stacks, I'm probably in on that one...
I did lose a magazine part when the base plate just slid off once... the locking plate went flying and I never found it
I did get Kahr to replace it though, my CM9 needed a rampectomy so I sent the mag with the broken follower and missing locking plate into Kahr and it came back with a new follower and locking plate (and shortened feed ramp)
I did get Kahr to replace it though, my CM9 needed a rampectomy so I sent the mag with the broken follower and missing locking plate into Kahr and it came back with a new follower and locking plate (and shortened feed ramp)
chaim
Member
Those revolver changes are only evolutionary and not big changes to the same degree that all changes in firearms technology in the last 50 years have only been evolutionary. The first striker fired firearms go back well over 100 years (the first striker fired shotgun was 140 years ago, the first striker fired striker fired rifle was around 70 years ago) and the first striker fired pistol*, and first polymer pistol goes back to 1970. Heck, even Glock popularizing both concepts goes to the early 1980s (40 years ago). These revolver changes may not have been huge technological changes, but they were revolutionary marketing advances (a lightweight revolver that could take magnum rounds was a bit of a technological advancement as well).
*I'm being conservative in giving first striker fired pistol to the VP70. More websites I've seen list that, but I've seen the FN1910 as well as a handgun from the 1880s listed on some websites as first. I'm not sure why, maybe they were striker fired but the VP70 is the first to use the contemporary version. Either way, it has been here a long time.
I understand them being conservative. The Shield and Shield Plus aren't that different really, just a little re-engineering of the mag and grip to make it work. I wish Kahr did that a long time ago, they could have gone double stack (or I think some of these are more 1 1/2 stack) without too big a change and only a small increase in overall width.
At this point, I'm not sure if the Kahr guys would be happy with a PM9 Plus and non-Kahr guys who want a 10 or greater round micro-9 probably have bought from the competition. This is the direction I'm kind of hoping they go. If they make a double stack (ish) 10-12 round CW9 or P9 I'll be first in line. Even if they go PM9 Plus I hope they keep the PM9/CM9, very few 9mms are as close to a true pocket pistol and they do have their place (I still consider buying one from time to time, but I usually use a S&W 442 or a Taurus 856UL when I want to pocket carry and since I have the P365 I don't see it getting any belt/IWB carry time).
- Status
