Why your knife isn't sharp after sharpening it.

JohnKSa

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A guy showed me his knife the other day. He had clearly sharpened it on a guided system, but it wasn't that sharp. I cleaned it up for him and in the process made an observation that I have been thinking about since then. I realized what the problem likely was and will tell him next time I see him.

But I had some more general thoughts as well and figured I'd share.

Why your knife isn't sharp even after you sharpened it.

1. The angle of the knife to the sharpening media is too inconsistent. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it can't vary too much. The more consistent the better. A guided system avoids this pitfall. It's also worth noting that dished/worn stones make holding a consistent angle nearly impossible. If you have a dished stone, either get rid of it or use a flattening stone to clean it up and flatten the sharpening surface.

2. The knife wasn't sharpened sufficiently. No matter how consistent the angle is to the stone, enough metal has to be removed to reach all the way down the side of the knife to where the new edge will be. Think of the knife as a rod instead of a mostly flat piece of metal. You need to grind off enough metal on both sides of the rod at an angle so that the bevels meet and a point is formed all down one edge of the rod. If you don't do that, the knife won't be sharp, no matter how perfect your technique is. Learning to detect a burr will allow you to verify that you've removed enough metal to form a good apex.

3. Too much pressure was used during the final stage of sharpening. The first step of sharpening is to remove metal to form an edge. It's acceptable (not really necessary, but acceptable) to use significant pressure during this phase. It also requires fairly coarse grit since you need to remove significant amounts of metal. The second stage of sharpening is "finishing" the edge. This works best with fine grit sharpening media and REQUIRES light pressure. The edge is already formed at this stage and it's a wispy thin piece of metal. If you push it hard against the sharpening media it will bend or break off. For this stage you can pretty much use only the weight of your hand and the knife--you don't really need to push down at all.

You can get a rough edge that will be of workable sharpness, but it won't be razor sharp unless you go to much lighter pressure and to finer media for the "finishing" stage.

If you are using a good quality guided system with graduated grits and still can't get your knife razor sharp, #2 or #3 is the problem.

Very quick instructions for sharpening with the above information in mind.

1. Using coarse grit media and a consistent angle, grind the knife until a burr is formed all along the opposite side of the edge from the side in contact with the media.

2. Repeat on the other side. Step 1 and 2 will take most of your time sharpening. Maybe 3/4 or more of the overall time and effort.

3. Do a few alternating light pressure passes with the coarse grit media from step one on each side to clear the burr. This pass needs to move the knife forward across the sharpening media as if the sharpening media is being carved. Angle is critical as you just want to remove the burr without altering the angle of the new bevel formed in the earlier steps. You shouldn't be able to detect any trace of a burr on either side of the edge now.

4. Switch to a fine grit and from this point on use only very light pressure and alternating strokes with the knife moving forward across the media as if carving it. Angle is critical here as you want to polish the bevel of the edge and don't want to try to alter that bevel angle at all. If you are "afraid" of the edge, you will place the knife at a shallower angle and polish only the upper part of the bevel without polishing all the way to the edge. If you get too aggressive, you will place the knife at too steep an angle (compared to the earlier steps) and effectively dull the edge.

If you want to shorten step 4, you can intentionally steepen the angle very slightly compared to the earlier steps and just do a few alternating passes with very light pressure. This will polish only a "sub-bevel" right at the apex which means it can be done much faster than polishing the entire bevel. Really keep the pressure light (Yes, I keep saying that. No, I'm not over-emphasizing it.) as you are pushing the edge against the media and it only takes a very little pressure to deform such a thin piece of metal.

When you are learning step 4, check for a burr frequently, maybe after every pair of alternating passes. It will be much harder to detect than when using a coarse grit media. If you find one, you screwed up step 4 and you need to go back and do steps 1, 2 and 3. They will go a lot faster this time since the bevel is already formed and you just need to take a tiny bit more off each side to get rid of the damage to the edge from using the wrong angle or too much pressure in step 4.

Then be more careful with pressure and angle when you start step 4 again.

The knife I mentioned in the opening paragraph of this post had a very small but consistent burr all down one side. The guy was using too much pressure on his guided sharpener (and probably not alternating sides) when he was finishing the edge and that pressure was deforming the metal slightly.
 
Sometimes I sharpen and one gets a razor and the other not quite so. I will follow your advice and be patient. Thanks for the advice I didn’t even know I needed.
 
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Good topic and some good pointers. I sharpen knives professionally as a side gig. I use a sharpening system similar to the Edge Pro but more refined. Additional to your pointers, here are my tips:

1. Start with a rough grit and only move to a finer grit when you feel the edge pop or get really sharp. If you move up a grit too early you will have to do twice the work to get the same edge as the more coarse stone.

2. Even number of strokes is critical on each side of the blade.

3. As previously mentioned angle consistency is critical.

4. Finish your edge with a leather strop or polishing tape to remove the final burr. You will notice the edge gets much sharper by doing that.

5. Certain steels lend themselves better to taking a fine edge than others. (Ex. 420 hc is more reluctant to take a fine edge than VG-10).
 
One thing that gets me is how many knives come new with uneven bevels, or two different angles. You must know if your angles do not match and even them up. Always use a Sharpie or marker on the edges to match the stone to the angle. If it matches one side and not the other then you have to even them up to the same angle.

Also many custom knife makers sharpen their knives on a grinder so you don't get a consistent angle - it's all over the place and makes it harder to resharpen. I use a Wicked Edge to get all angles the same.
 
I have noticed with my current pocket knife for some reason it seems to stay sharp longer if I don’t finish it on a fine stone. To be clear it is not sharper, it seems to take it longer to get dull.
Really sharp isn’t what I normally going for now days.
 
I got a Boker knife that didn’t have an edge at all. Like it skipped that step. So yes some knives don’t get a proper factory edge.

Been doing my best to learn the fine art of sharpening things. Chain saw’s always need sharpening. But we’re talking knifes. Got a Work Sharp system and learning how to use it. The Boker with no edge came out sharp. Other knives hit or miss. Most come out sharper. Although some of them it takes two tries.
 
2. Even number of strokes is critical on each side of the blade.
This is critical for the polishing stage--not just keeping it even but alternating sides. During the early stage where the bevel is being formed, you can just pay attention to keeping both bevels close to the same angle and making sure they look about the same.
4. Finish your edge with a leather strop or polishing tape to remove the final burr. You will notice the edge gets much sharper by doing that.
Yes, stropping is a quick way to put a final polish on an edge or to put an extra polish on a knife edge after it's all the way sharp. It tends to be more forgiving than using stones since maintaining the angle isn't quite as critical.
5. Certain steels lend themselves better to taking a fine edge than others. (Ex. 420 hc is more reluctant to take a fine edge than VG-10).
Very generally speaking, the more carbide forming ingredients in the steel, the harder it will be to get a super-fine edge for at least two reasons.
You must know if your angles do not match and even them up.
It's easier to get good results if the bevel is symmetric, and the knife will tend to cut better, especially in harder materials. That said, it's possible to get a knife sharp even if the bevel angles don't match from one side to the other. In fact, there are some types of knives made this way intentionally. The chisel grind (with one bevel essentially non-existent) can be very sharp although it is sort of specialized.

People often give me their knives to sharpen and often the bevel angles are pretty badly mismatched. Depending on the quality of the knife and the apparent interest level of the user, I will sometimes leave the bevels mismatched and just sharpen the knife without trying to match things up. I'm not telling people that they should do that, just saying that you can do that and get away with it in a lot of cases.
I have noticed with my current pocket knife for some reason it seems to stay sharp longer if I don’t finish it on a fine stone. To be clear it is not sharper, it seems to take it longer to get dull.
I'll have to think about that for awhile. Do you know what kind of steel it is?
 
What systems do you guys recommend?

I use the TSPROF sharpening system from Russia. I have the K02 model. Not sure how they are with US orders with everything going on overseas. They do have a US store though. They are quite spendy and a bit more than the average person would need for maintaining their knives at home but I use mine for professional sharpening. The other sharpener I keep in my kitchen drawer is the Spyderco Sharpmaker. It is a fantastic sharpener for edge maintenance and quick jobs. It will not reset an edge because the stones aren't aggressive enough to do that. I was able to maintain my kitchen knives with it for almost a decade before I had to use a more aggressive stone to take enough metal off for a new clean edge. Ask five guys what their favorite sharpener is and you will get ten different answers.
 
After many knife sharpenings, I have determined I never shave with a knife I have sharpened and don't need that type of edge, ever.
I use an old school Lansky and never go finer than the medium stone, and stroke the stone straight OFF the edge, move the stone over 1 width and stroke straight OFF the edge again, repeat the indexing the stone over again, and repeat until I have stoned the complete length of the edge.

This creates somewhat of a micro-serrated (micro steak knife) edge that cuts most things effortlessly...but I can't shave my arm with it.
I also like to change the angle of the stone slightly for the last strokes to concentrate on the edge as mentioned by the OP.
How I do this is allowing the guide rod to rest on the bottom of the slot for the initial/major stoning strokes, then hold the guide rod up against TOP of the slot, slightly changing the stone angle to concentrate on the edge.

So, I'm never looking for "razor sharp" results, just a good cutting edge.
jmo,
.
 
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I don't sharpen all my knives as sharp as I can possibly get them. It does save a bit of work, although most of the work of sharpening a knife goes into getting the basic geometry of the bevels right, not finishing the edge to razor sharpness. And for some things it's just not necessary.

When I sharpen my serrated knives, for example, I'm not trying to get them shaving sharp although I can do it if I put in the effort. They operate differently and I use them differently. Shaving sharpness doesn't really buy me anything in that application.

But for a lot of people, getting a knife as sharp as it can possibly be is a goal in itself, even if the knife would perform admirably without that finishing touch. The guy I mentioned in the OP has a very nice guided sharpening system and had obviously put in the work that should have guaranteed him a scary sharp blade but wasn't getting the results he wanted.
 
I struggled for years on an old worn out stone, only getting "kinda sharp". Consistency really is the key, and a stone that's all dished out will give you gray hair if you're chasing a truly nice edge.

My every day work knife spends most of its time deburring tool or scraper so it isn't critical with that one. But something like a skinner needs a fine edge
 
Consistency really is the key, and a stone that's all dished out will give you gray hair if you're chasing a truly nice edge.
I've seen people who can get good results with a dished stone. I don't know how they do it.

I can see that it is theoretically possible, but it would be quite difficult. You'd have to constantly track the dishing in the stone with the angle of the blade to keep a consistent angle to the sharpening media. I know I can't do it. When a stone gets dished, I either flatten it or throw it out if it can't be flattened with a reasonable effort.
 
I used to be much more involved in the activity but will admit to using devices similar to #3 over the years, in the interest of expediency.

A few months ago I used it on a knife I carry to save the blades on my leatherman and it ruined it to my eyes. I even bought another one it looked so bad. Still not sure what happened, I have used it the same way on many other blades over the years with decent results for the time and effort.

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It sure cuts the heck out of the wrap on hay bails though, much better than when it was smooth. Despite that I probably still wouldn’t do it on purpose.
 
I'm guessing that the blade is soft for some reason and the pull-through just massacred it. You should be able to get it back in shape with a more conventional sharpener, but if it's really that soft, I don't know how well it will hold an edge.
 
Usually when one combines a carbide "sharpener", soft Chinese steel and over excitement, he gets such an intriguing edge geometry as a result.
 
1. Using coarse grit media and a consistent angle, grind the knife until a burr is formed all along the opposite side of the edge from the side in contact with the media.

So in your first step, are you pulling the edge along the stone as opposed to the slicing motion in the later steps. I’ve always done the slicing motion the whole process, which I suppose wouldn’t give a burr as well on the first step.
 
I have never been able to get the touch for sharpening anything by hand. I have tried all different systems, and different stones, wheels, etc. I just don't have the eye for it I guess. I envy guys that can make a knife razor sharp. The best I have ever been able to do is with the Work Sharp sharpener. Still not sharp enough to slice paper or shave with, but sharp enough for most needs.
 
The ones i use. Make a nice edge for me. My swiss army knives i can shave hair off my arm. I used to work in butcher shop. My boss and others showed me many times how to use the oil stone. I just could not do it. Im fine with a steel though.
 
So in your first step, are you pulling the edge along the stone as opposed to the slicing motion in the later steps. I’ve always done the slicing motion the whole process, which I suppose wouldn’t give a burr as well on the first step.
You'll get a burr either way, surprisingly enough. During the first stage, I don't pay much attention to anything other than keeping the angle consistent. It's very forgiving of pressure in that stage and you can move the knife in any way you want on the media and still get good results and a burr.
The ones i use. Make a nice edge for me.
If they are made well and the knife steel isn't too soft, you can get decent results. I don't think you can get a "nice edge" with any of them, but they do offer a quick way to get a usable edge. I bought one for one of my in-laws some years back even though it hurt me to do it. It worked ok for him...

Also, if you can use a steel properly, you can clean up an edge from a pull through and get better results. Not many people know how to use a steel properly.
 
I'm guessing that the blade is soft for some reason and the pull-through just massacred it. You should be able to get it back in shape with a more conventional sharpener, but if it's really that soft, I don't know how well it will hold an edge.

I don’t have access to a Rockwell machine anymore, to test the hardness. As awful as it looks it actually cuts well. Obviously more like a serrated blade that a straight razor.

I might try and fix it right someday. If not, I’ve got the new one on stand by.

I’ve never had that problem before though, I generally don’t use such devices on expensive blades though and certainly won’t after the results on that one. Even if a good blade might not come out destroyed.
 
Great observations! If one looks closely at many of the edge bevels some of them are all over the place following a sharpening. The guided systems work very well for maintaining bevel consistency and are repeatable which is a key part of knife maintenance. Some guys can handhold on a grinder and get a very nice edge, that style does well for slack belt convex sharpening. Whether or not is is consistent and repeatable is another. Once a proper symmetrical apex is set, the blade has excellent sharpness and a few light passes with a strop makes the cut qualities nicer.
 
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