Cast Bullets in 9mm for Best Accuracy

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DMW1116

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I saw another post about this in a different thread, so I decided to explore it further. Another poster tried some cast 9mm bullets sized to 0.358" and got better accuracy. I have some 125-grain Gallant bullets sized to 0.358" and wondered if I were to try a couple, if that would cause pressure issues? I plan to measure them to be sure, if I decide to try them. I have loads I've developed for 125 grain cast bullets of similar hardness but sized to 0.356". I would start at the minimum load for these and possibly work down, but not necessarily up unless I find things are ok. Too much powder is clearly a problem. Too big a bullet and not enough powder could also cause problems. If I to decide to try this, I wouldn't do so until I'm done with my current batch of 9mm testing using some Gallant 135-grain bullets sized to 0.356".

If this does seem to be a workable idea, I see Missouri Bullet Company offers softer bullets intended for 38 Special sized to 0.358" and 38 Super bullets sized to 0.357".
 
Going bigger on cast bullets is a "no big deal" with respect to pressure. If you want, you could back off say 0.5 grain, try a few and then go up.

The more likely problem would be with not chambering smoothly. I would strongly recommend a plunk test with a dummy round first. If you have to go shorter on COAL to get it to plunk, the shorter AOL would be a reason to back off more on your charge before working back up.
 
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I cast my own and have found 0.357" works well in my 9mm Sigs, a Browning Hi Power, two Colt 1911's, Ruger. Accuracy was better than the usual commercial 0.355" offerings.

Too, I've found that all of the above will feed LSWC's similar in shape to the old H&G #68 (a 200 gr LSWC for the .45 ACP). Also, the heavier weights are more accurate; 124's vs. 115's...this last is true for jacketed as well as cast types. Best regards, Rod
 
My existing 125-grain cast load was an attempt to make a 9mm "Quiet" round, so I started at minimum and loaded down until it wouldn't cycle anymore. Then I went back up to the last charge to cycle.

I've seen people say go to 0.001" larger than jacketed bullets to start, and even 0.002" larger, and certainly no more than 0.003". The softer bullets I figured would swage down easier, being BHN of 12 instead of the normal BHN of 18. These are all using coated bullets, not traditionally lubed bullets. I have one 9mm that shoots lights out with 147-grain RMR Matchwinners but haven't found a load that shoots similarly well in the other 2. Due to extensive testing with my Blackhawk, I have a few 357 Mag sized bullets around. If the 9mm Gallant bullets don't work as well as I'd like, I may try the 125 grain Gallant 38 bullets. I hope the 9mm bullets work. I have a new box of 500.
 
Rodfac said:
I cast my own and have found 0.357" works well in my 9mm Sigs, a Browning Hi Power, two Colt 1911's, Ruger. Accuracy was better than the usual commercial 0.355" offerings.

Too, I've found that all of the above will feed LSWC's similar in shape to the old H&G #68 (a 200 gr LSWC for the .45 ACP). Also, the heavier weights are more accurate; 124's vs. 115's...this last is true for jacketed as well as cast types. Best regards, Rod
Click to expand...

That's encouraging. I generally find heavier bullets shoot better in my 9mm pistols as well, except for the Lehigh 90 grain Extreme Defenders. Those are better than others, but $$$ is too much for practice. My standard load is a 147-grain XTP, which outshoots most every other load I've tried. Again, these are pricey compared to cast bullets. I've also wanted to try the Acme 150-grain 9mm SWC. If I put as much interest in 9mm as I did 357 Magnum I'm sure I'll find at least one more load that will shoot very well. My Blackhawk regularly shoots under 1.5-inch groups at 25 yards when rested. I hope to equal that in 9mm in my other two pistols. The 147-grain RMR load will also shoot like this, but only in that one pistol, a Canik Mete SFX.
 
DWM...you might give Missouri Bullet Co. a look-see...I've had good luck with their 124-125 gr LSWC's in my 9mm's. They're as good as my own castings...if you have trouble with leading, try swirl lubing them with Lee Liquid Alox (LLA). When I use commercial lead alloy bullets, I always re-lube them with LLA...works very well. I haven't tried any that are heavier however. BTW, I'm casting with wheel weight alloy around bhn 12, but harder shouldn't be a problem with 0357" dia. Regards, Rod
 
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DWM...Just an added thought...I don't push for velocity with any of my cast bullets. Generally, I get my best accuracy and functioning ~ 1000 fps. Winchester 231 or HP38, work well, and Bullseye, WST etc. at charge weights to get 1000 fps should work as well. Rod
 
Rodfac said:
DWM...you might give Missouri Bullet Co. a look-see...I've had good luck with their 124-125 gr LSWC's in my 9mm's. They're as good as my own castings...if you have trouble with leading, try swirl lubing them with Lee Liquid Alox (LLA). When I use commercial lead alloy bullets, I always re-lube them with LLA...works very well. I haven't tried any that are heavier however. Regards, Rod
Click to expand...

I didn't dig through their 9mm offerings, but their 38 Special bullets in the 125-grain range were a secondary plan. If this madness shows any promise at all, I can try their 0.357" sized 38 Super projectiles. There isn't risk in getting the softer 38 bullets, as I could just use them in my Blackhawk. The others would be an all or nothing type of endeavor.
 
P Flados said:
Going bigger on cast bullets is a "no big deal" with respect to pressure. If you want, you could back off say 0.5 grain, try a few and then go up.

The more likely problem would be with not chambering smoothly. I would strongly recommend a plunk test with a dummy round first. If you have to go shorter on COAL to get it to plunk, the shorter AOL would be a reason to back off more on your charge before working back up.
Click to expand...
Yup. That’s what I found out too. The .358” 115’s I was given were only good for one of my 9’s: a Walther P-38 post war/pre68 import. I haven’t had the gun for almost 20 years now and the kid I gave it to now has kids who shoot it. :)

If the larger bullets feed and chamber, they might be more accurate. It’s worth trying.
 
I run .358 sized Lee 125gr RN in all my 9mm pistols, with the exception of a relatively new Tisas that I haven't yet tried. These are pistols from Ww2 surplus to SW Shield and an SCCY.

I had to adjust the OAL to get a load that would chamber in all those firearms, and adjust the powder charge also. I run these around 1000fps, and some slower for specific guns.

I have a Promo load that runs about 850 fps, shoots very accurately, and dumps the brass in a pile 2 feet to my right. Win-win.
 
The bullet diameter shouldd not be larger then the chambers throat. If larger, a shorter COL is needed to allow rounds to chamber. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/free-bore-throat-diameters-in-9mm-luger.3612/

SAAMI- THROAT
"The tapered portion of the bore of a barrel, immediately ahead of the chamber which is sized to provide clearance for the bullet of the loaded cartridge. Also referred to as Leade or Ball Seat and is associated with Free Bore. See Free Bore."
Screenshot_20230313-073901_Drive.jpg

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/taurus-g3c-9mm-luger.317/
 
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What is your goal? “Best” is a never ending road of trial and error. If you are competing and need the most accuracy, you would probably be time and money ahead to just buy quality JHP’s. It would be rare to find any cast bullet that could match them in accuracy.
 
Have you slugged the barrel to see what it actually measures? I’m not saying don’t try the .358, but I’d want to know what the barrel measures and then see if the step in the increased diameter really improves group size. I’ve tried .355, .356, and .357 and while there’s a slight Vavg increase, there wasn’t really a significant difference in group size. I didn’t try .358, yet, since I was at least .001 larger than the slug.
Bayou bullets used to size to what you want for free. I haven’t gotten any in awhile so don’t know if that’s still their policy.
 
DMW1116 said:
Cast Bullets in 9mm for Best Accuracy

... in a different thread ... Another poster tried some cast 9mm bullets sized to 0.358" and got better accuracy
Click to expand...
Haven't you heard the sayings "Slug your barrel ... Bullet to barrel fit is king"? But there's more to accuracy than just bullet sizing and that's lead alloy hardness (or softness).

To me, accuracy of ammunition results from more efficient powder burn to develop consistent chamber pressure build/average max pressures to apply similar recoil force (On muzzle climb) and muzzle velocities (For bullet drop) round after round to produce smaller groups/less scatter on target.

Many reloaders load cast/lead bullets at reduced velocities to prevent/reduce leading of barrel and why there is a whole different set of slower published lead load data from jacketed load data (Because using jacketed load data would lead the barrel). And remember that gas checked bullets came into existence to prevent/reduce leading of barrel at higher velocities and modern jacketed/plated/coated bullets are essentially full-length gas checked bullets.

But using lower powder charges may not bump/expand the bullet base sufficiently to seal with the barrel to produce more consistent chamber pressures, which results in accuracy you seek.

When I was a reloading newbie shooting USPSA in 45ACP and 9mm, I tested not only various burn rate powders from Bullseye to HS-6, I also tested lead/plated/jacketed bullets. What I was told by many about "hard cast" bullets is they could be pushed to jacketed velocities. Then I met a local bullet caster who supplied match shooters in two counties and took me under his wing and taught me about lead alloy/hardness vs bullet leading/accuracy.

He told me harder lead alloy bullets around 20-24 BHN had to be pushed to near jacketed velocities to properly bump/expand the bullet base to seal with the barrel (Expanding bullet base and compression of lube channel/lube flow form an "O" ring seal) to reduce leading and produce accuracy from more consistent chamber pressures. He used different hardness of lead alloy for his bullets (14-20 BHN depending on application) to supply his customers and for match shooters shooting Cowboy Action, he used lower BHN lead alloy.

When he retired, I switched to MBC as they used 18 BHN lead alloy and offered softer 12 BHN lead alloy for lighter/target applications (They did offer 10 BHN lead alloy bullets but not anymore). For most of my 45ACP loads, 18 BHN SWC (IDP #1) worked fine but not for my PT145 with oversized barrel that produced patches of leading. And when I tested softer 12 BHN SWC (Bullseye #1), even light 4.0 gr charge of Red Dot/Promo expanded the bullet base sufficiently to reduce/prevent leading of barrel and produce accuracy.

For 9mm, 18 BHN RN (SmallBall!) sized .356" for my .355" - .356" sized barrels produced full-length barrel leading with max Hodgdon lead load data for W231/HP-38 and accuracy was poor - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center
  • 9mm 125 gr Lead CN W231/HP-38 COL 1.125" Start 3.9 gr (1,009 fps) - Max 4.4 gr (1,086 fps)
I could have used .357" sized bullets but my tighter aftermarket match barrels would not have chambered finished rounds, especially with thicker case wall headstamp brass.

When even the start charge of Hodgdon lead load data produced some leading of barrel, I went looking for more load data and found 1999 Winchester lead load data and Speer lead load data - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger_125.pdf
  • 9mm 124 gr Lead RN W231 (No OAL listed) Start 3.3 gr (910 fps) - Max 4.0 gr (1035 fps)
  • 9mm 125 gr Lead RN W231 COL 1.130" Start 3.8 gr (911 fps) - Max 4.1 gr (982 fps)
And when I lowered powder charge to 3.8 gr, leading of barrel stopped and accuracy improved.

So if you are pursuing 9mm accuracy, in addition to bullet to barrel fit, consider lead alloy BHN, especially if you are using lighter target loads.

FYI, Z-Cast bullets use 14-16 BHN lead alloy and work well with lighter target loads as well - https://www.jacobeagle.com/product-page/9mm-124-grain-rn-500-count

Hooda Thunkit said:
I run .358 sized Lee 125 gr RN in all my 9mm pistols ... I have a Promo load that runs about 850 fps, shoots very accurately
Click to expand...
Fast burning Red Dot produced accurate lead loads for me in 9mm and I consider Promo modern Red Dot that meters like W231 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ng-red-dot-in-9mm.894187/page-2#post-12041541
 
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DMW1116 said:
I saw another post about this in a different thread, so I decided to explore it further. Another poster tried some cast 9mm bullets sized to 0.358" and got better accuracy. I have some 125-grain Gallant bullets sized to 0.358" and wondered if I were to try a couple, if that would cause pressure issues? I plan to measure them to be sure, if I decide to try them. I have loads I've developed for 125 grain cast bullets of similar hardness but sized to 0.356". I would start at the minimum load for these and possibly work down, but not necessarily up unless I find things are ok. Too much powder is clearly a problem. Too big a bullet and not enough powder could also cause problems. If I to decide to try this, I wouldn't do so until I'm done with my current batch of 9mm testing using some Gallant 135-grain bullets sized to 0.356".

If this does seem to be a workable idea, I see Missouri Bullet Company offers softer bullets intended for 38 Special sized to 0.358" and 38 Super bullets sized to 0.357".
Click to expand...



I was using a Lee 358 sizer for my 9mm powder coated. Only using mixed range lead. It worked well, but I had slugged the bore to make that determination.
 
I only use cast.358 for several pistols, zero leading/cycling/accuracy issues (well, not counting my accuracy issues). I like not having to size differently for 9mm and.38 spl/.357 mag.
 
LiveLife said:
DMW1116 said:
Another poster tried some cast 9mm bullets sized to 0.358" and got better accuracy.
Click to expand...
For 9mm ... sized .356" for my .355" - .356" ... barrels ... .357" sized bullets ... would not have chambered finished rounds, especially with thicker case wall headstamp brass
Click to expand...
And the barrel has the final say ...
DMW1116 said:
Well that didn’t work. No plunk here. Back to the 0.356” bullets.
Click to expand...
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
And so it begins… :p
Click to expand...
Nope.

When Lee Precision released "Bulge Buster" kits using FCD to push-through resize brass that could not be reduced with resizing die to fully "plunk" in barrels (Except 9mm due to tapered case), I exchanged emails with John Lee and even he discouraged using FCD with oversized bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/new-lee-bulge-buster-die-kit.502850/

Intended use of FCD for 9mm was for typical .355"-.356" sized bullets as larger than .357" sized bullets, especially with thicker case wall brass could post size lead bullet but brass spring back could reduce neck tension - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10713822
 
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