Wadcutters for Defense?

CDW4ME said:

Lucky Gunner Test (like video in OP) of 38 special bullets. Obvious to me that a HP makes a bigger hole and both are from a 2'' barrel…

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If lucky gunner were to load the wad cutter bullet to the same velocity as the 130 grain load, the results might be different.


Kevin

kopcicle said:

Hollow base, upside down.

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Those of us who tried that found they rarely gave sufficient penetration. Great expansion but likely to cause superficial wounds.


I am aware of one case where the outcome of such a load was successful for the shooter but am aware of many more “less than successful “ cases.


Kevin

The point of the midrange wadcutter is not great effectiveness, it is less recoil.
A soft fast hollow point will be more effective if you don't mind the kick.

I started my snub journey loading traditional wadcutters.

I have wrist issues, avascular necrosis, arthritis.

I discovered Hornady critical defense lite. Pink tipped. They recoiled the same or less, and expanded from the 642 while getting penetration about like my factory wadcutters.

I stepped up to Hornady critical defense standard pressure. From 90 with the lites to 110 grain, these penetrated the same or more than the wadcutter and they expanded a lot more. I didn't notice a recoil increase. Most importantly they shot to the sites of my 642.

I parked it there for carry ammo. Easy recoil, easy accuracy, meet penetration and expansion requirements.

They carry and load much faster than WCs.

I highly suggest you try a box, they seem to be available and decently affordable. Good medicine for the snub nose.

I haven't tried the plus p but I will eventually. From a snub luckygunner showed the +p not penetrate as much as the standard because it expanded a bit more. No free lunches.

I will try the plus p eventually and report back.

I picked up a box of federal punch and will try that as well.

Underwood had a st paddy's day sale and I got some of their standard pressure 150 grain was. Giving those a try, maybe good for woods walking of they shot to sites and don't tear me up.

If too much for airweight they'll go in the steel frames.

Also grabbed some Keith bullets in all major calibers. With the sale it was like 15 bucks for 38s/9mms/380s etc.

My go-tos are BB 38spl +p Outdoors LSWC with a gas check. Outta my 640 (all steel), almost as much kick as ‘standard’ 357s. Hard-cast lead, no expansion required. Puts my mind at ease over the ‘But will it expand from a 2” barrel?’ debate.

Pricier than the ‘usual suspects’… but worth it.

WC loads are not my first choice. But, of course, they are far, far better than not having anything you can shoot to defend yourself with.


I did get a bit skeptical of them when I had 750-odd fps DEWC bullets bounce off of a target backer made of old conveyor belt material rather then penetrate it like every other bullet I have fired at that material has. (Sometimes even 12 ga wads will stick in them.) I began to wonder if a large sternum bone or skull would be too much for a target loaded WC.

A higher velocity (850 fps and up) WC would probably make for a good load, but the recoil becomes a factor so you’re back to square one if that’s why you use light-loaded wadcutters in the first place. (Curse you and your laws, Sir Isaac! )

Stay safe.

I took a Colt M357 (basically the Python without the underlug and Royal Blue finish) to Viet Nam on my first tour. I loaded up a few hundred hollow-based wadcutters backwards over all the Unique I dared. I used it twice, and it left wounds that looked a lot like a .30-30 in a white tail deer.

The HBWC reversed is an oft recommended home brewed solution but falls in the "Reloads for self-defense" quagmire.
I suspect few if any after action reports. Recall Dean Grenell writing that he and some other shooters found them just the ticket for hunting rats at the town dump. Usually recommend for novice shooters or those with physical problems, and they are a good example of a hit with a minor caliber hurting worse than a miss with a major.

Work fine for me. I have been working though 1000 148 grain copper plated full wad cutters pushed by 3 grains of Winchester “Winclean” 244, and I am surprised at how potent they seem. Today. I shot a mostly empty small propane tank at 10 yards (the green kind you use for a portable bbq) and they went through and through the tank! I was a surprised at their penetration. The max load recommended by Hodgdon (for 38 special) is 2.8 grains (supposedly rated for 815 ft/sec) but I worked up to 3 grains—give good feedback for my 4 inch GP100. I believe these would poke holes as effective as most anything else in a self-defense scenario. They are a pain in the butt to load in the revolver with the flat face, and once I use em’ up, I am switching to a SWC style of bullet.
My usual carry load is either Buffalo Bore +P LSWC or Underwood’s similar load.

Jim Watson said:

The point of the midrange wadcutter is not great effectiveness, it is less recoil.
A soft fast hollow point will be more effective if you don't mind the kick.

Click to expand...

Also going to need a lighter bullet to get that fast velocity and penetration is sacrificed. Someone brought up Hornady Critical Defense Lite in .38... that is one of my preferred .38 loads for low recoil and good performance.

But this feeds into my point that outside of .38 and .357 you don't have these options.

whatever you shoot well and fast is best IMHO. what a bullet does after it hits a target is important, but a distant 2nd to actually hitting the target in the first place.

yes indeed, wadcutters…

defjon said:

I started my snub journey loading traditional wadcutters.

I have wrist issues, avascular necrosis, arthritis.

I discovered Hornady critical defense lite. Pink tipped. They recoiled the same or less, and expanded from the 642 while getting penetration about like my factory wadcutters.

I stepped up to Hornady critical defense standard pressure. From 90 with the lites to 110 grain, these penetrated the same or more than the wadcutter and they expanded a lot more. I didn't notice a recoil increase. Most importantly they shot to the sites of my 642.

I parked it there for carry ammo. Easy recoil, easy accuracy, meet penetration and expansion requirements.

They carry and load much faster than WCs.

I highly suggest you try a box, they seem to be available and decently affordable. Good medicine for the snub nose.

I haven't tried the plus p but I will eventually. From a snub luckygunner showed the +p not penetrate as much as the standard because it expanded a bit more. No free lunches.

I will try the plus p eventually and report back.

I picked up a box of federal punch and will try that as well.

Click to expand...

I also have wrist issues, especially where the thumb meets the wrist. I have not tried the pink box of Hornady .38s. Thank you for that report.
I have shot their 9mm version for accuracy. It was so-so.
I have shot a bunch of and do carry the .38 standard velocity Critical Defense ammo. It has a little kick, but is totally tolerable to me. I have shot their +P Critical Defense and take my word for it, use the $30 for a box of standard velocity. I regretted shooting that box of ammo in my 442 for a few days.

If I couldn't take the recoil of a standard load, a target full wadcutter would be my first choice.

Pat Riot said:

I also have wrist issues, especially where the thumb meets the wrist. I have not tried the pink box of Hornady .38s. Thank you for that report.
I have shot their 9mm version for accuracy. It was so-so.
I have shot a bunch of and do carry the .38 standard velocity Critical Defense ammo. It has a little kick, but is totally tolerable to me. I have shot their +P Critical Defense and take my word for it, use the $30 for a box of standard velocity. I regretted shooting that box of ammo in my 442 for a few days.

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Well, maybe I'll skip the +p cd. Thanks.

I did try some calvary arms fbi load, 158 gr lswchp. That is a plus p load but I didn't find it too bad. I only shot 10-15 rounds end of session. It felt like more omph so to speak, but didn't aggravate anything.

I've tried Buffalo bore hc wadcutters and all of their 38 defense rounds and they were too much for the airweight. Not bad in a model 60 and fine in anything larger.

The remington htp load is very nice for any steel frame, seems to do well in snubs and larger.

If one is selecting wadcutters because of recoil, data:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
148gr. WC @ 713 fps (same bullet I used in prior post to this thread)
110 Hornady FTX Critical Defense @ 858 fps (this expands in gel unlike the WC - 14.1'' / .44)
Using this load data for approximate powder charges:
https://shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/38-special/
And this recoil calculator, I'm assigning a 1 lb. firearm weight - 16 ounce snub
https://shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php
148 gr. @ 713 fps (assigned 4 gr. powder) = .56 recoil impulse, 17.9 recoil velocity
110 gr. @ 858 fps (assigned 5 gr. powder) = .53 recoil impulse, 17.0 recoil velocity
Data says WC recoil is no less than a HP that penetrates and expands.

Paul Harrell has made several videos shooting "meat targets" that are probably as close to a living human torso as can be without shooting the real thing. Check out his videos.

https://www.thetacticalwire.com/features/df2881b2-e57d-4f89-83e2-af7207f73d41

https://www.thetacticalwire.com/features/c7b1cd6e-bc56-463b-afdc-dbb7ca7bb394

“Despite being the guy who wrote an article on handgun "stopping power" after researching almost 2000 real life shootings, I think we spend too much time trying to optimize this variable. The more I research the topic, the more I realize that shot placement is an exponentially better predictor of "stopping power" than caliber is.” Greg Ellifritz

LOL. Its way easier to sit in front of your computer and argue paper numbers, than it is to actually go out and put the time and effort in to get, and remain proficient. So what do you think?

Kleanbore said:

Dead meat and live tissue do not behave the same way.

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Better than ballistic gel for factoring variables of the non-homogenous body.

Critical defense standard pressure > wadcutters

It really does recoil similarly.

Or, Critical defense lite...still getting decent penetration with expansion for less recoil than the wadcutters.

I only keep hardcast wc now for airweight snubs in the outdoors. But I'd rather have a hardcast Keith style in a slightly heavier gun tbh.

Kleanbore said:

Tests are not repeatable.

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Neither are results from actual use?