Race to the Bottom... Long Range Pistol/Carbine Cartridge

I know this performance can be exceeded by a larger diameter case, again necked down to a small projectile, but this has been my answer to the “long range deer hunting revolver” problem. I went through various super magnum cartridges, 460 & 500 S&W, 445SM, 357Max, 357/44 Bobcat (stupid poly carb collars), 256win, 22 Jet, 22 Hornet & K-Hornet… and finally stumbled upon the 357/44 Bain & Davis about 10 years ago. This pursuit was significantly hindered by the non-existence of the right combination of bullet weight and construction for given calibers. But drawing the Speer .358” 180 grain HotCor through a .357” bullet sizing die offers the right mix of short bearing surface, short ogive, while being sufficiently robust to hold together at relatively extremely high impact velocities for a revolver cartridge without being so tough to not expand at relatively low impact velocities for a rifle cartridge.
View attachment 1139963 View attachment 1139966

Over substantial charges of H110, I can get this 180 grain bullet up over 1900fps from a 7.5” Redhawk barrel. I am sourcing parts currently to build a Marlin 1894 in the same, and expect another 300-400fps from a 20” barrel. My objective with this pursuit was to create a revolver truly capable of taking deer out to 250yrds - and my load is hitting harder at 250 than a conventional .357 magnum would with the muzzle pressed against the hide.

Less recoil and a smaller revolver than a 460 S&W X-Frame, and nearly a whole 0.1 higher BC, my B&D is actually meeting and beating the 460 at 250yrds on energy, velocity, sectional density, and trajectory… in a revolver ~30% lighter.

Nice write up. The 357 B & D has been an "academic" interest of mine for a few years. Really, it is more gun than I need, or even want but I'm glad you're having fun with it. I like your solution to bullets that are unsuitable for the velocities you are achieving. I have read about that scenario being repeated in other proprietary cartridges. It's interesting that as interest in wildcatting grows more companies aren't building bullets that can "work" at higher velocities. In the spirit of this thread, I wonder how many pistol/carbine combinations have failed for lack of bullets that could effectively be used in both rolls.
 
I think it’s one of those things that sounds nice as long as you ignore the fact that you are handy capping your rifle choice by making it imperative that it’s ammunition function in smaller, weaker, short range, pistols.

Probably why it’s not more popular in the military.

I guess you could go the other direction and use a very powerful pistol like this 50 BMG.View attachment 1140666

but then you have a “side arm” that’s not very good for that use.

Kind of like hammers. If I need to bust off concrete from a post, I use a 20 lb sledgehammer. If I need to drive tacks, a .5 oz tack hammer. That’s not going to make a 2lb ball peen hammer a universal tool great for both jobs. Even if it seems like a good idea.

I didn't think it would be a great universal tool. But I think there is room to improve on the 5.7x28 carbine. 6x35 has 55% more energy. I'm curious about the Sig 2 piece case. If it can add 15% that would put 6x35 in a more useful range

https://www.cartridgecollector.net/6-x-35mm-tswg

According to that article 6x35 has more energy than 5.56 out of a 10" barrel
 
It's interesting that as interest in wildcatting grows more companies aren't building bullets that can "work" at higher velocities.

I’m not terribly certain interest in wildcatting is growing, or has been in recent years. We certainly hear more about wildcatting since we have the internet now, but I would really think it is fair to say the golden age of wildcatting is long over.

In the spirit of this thread, I wonder how many pistol/carbine combinations have failed for lack of bullets that could effectively be used in both rolls.

A lot.

Even many commercially standardized cartridges are hindered by poor bullet option availability in the market. The 6.8 SPC is an example - there are only a handful of bullets in .277” which are truly suitable for the velocity and magazine limits of the cartridge. 35 Whelen is another, which has lost out a lot of marketshare to 338-06, simply because there are far more 338 bullets on the market than appropriate 35cal bullets. 30 caliber cartridges dominated the US market for many years, and 6.5’s were considered exotic, so really until the Creedmoor came out, our options for fast twist 260rem, x55, or 264wm were very limited.

I think there is room to improve on the 5.7x28 carbine. 6x35 has 55% more energy.

The 6x35mm should do more, it’s not surprising, and not accidental. The 6x35 is about 50% larger case than the 5.7x28.

The problem, however, of course comes from the fact the 5.7 already requires design concessions compared to conventional pistol cartridges - we’re not using short recoil in 5.7, and definitely not using short recoil in 6x35. I might have to do some of my own measuring, but I should have something around 60% more case capacity in 357/44B&D, and not surprisingly, I’m picking up almost 60% kinetic energy (comparing my 7.5” barrel to a 9” 6x35), and naturally, a 35cal 180grn bullet with a BC of .245G1 is hitting much harder than a 65grn 6mm with a .13G1 when there’s only ~150-200fps between them. Getting closer to the energy I’m achieving could be done with a .440” or .473” case head cartridge, something like a shortened 6 ARC/PPC or 6 BR, but we’re stuck with super short bullets meaning low sectional density and poor aerodynamics, or trading powder capacity for bullet length. Again, the 1.4” case length of the 6x35 means we only have ~.2” of nose length - I think there’s a reason why the 6x35 hasn’t taken off, and especially why micro-length carbine/rifle cartridges aren’t a thing. Again, containing even the power of a 5.7 takes more than a conventional blowback or short recoil design, and getting into 6x35 or 357/44 power level will take an action more similar to what we already see in PDW carbines - they’re just rifles, so getting to a grip-borne mag length becomes less and less interesting. Why have a 6x35 with an underweight bullet and low speeds when you could have a 6 ARC or 6.5 Grendel, or x39? What are those thumpers based on the 458 Socom case called again? I’ve seen a 30 cal wildcat which had pretty impressive results - of course, conceding to pretty short little bullets too - but it’s a big case.
 
something like a shortened 6 ARC/PPC or 6 BR, but we’re stuck with super short bullets meaning low sectional density and poor aerodynamics, or trading powder capacity for bullet length. Again, the 1.4” case length of the 6x35 means we only have ~.2” of nose length - I think there’s a reason why the 6x35 hasn’t taken off, and especially why micro-length carbine/rifle cartridges aren’t a thing. Again, containing even the power of a 5.7 takes more than a conventional blowback or short recoil design, and getting into 6x35 or 357/44 power level will take an action more similar to what we already see in PDW carbines - they’re just rifles, so getting to a grip-borne mag length becomes less and less interesting. Why have a 6x35 with an underweight bullet and low speeds when you could have a 6 ARC or 6.5 Grendel, or x39? What are those thumpers based on the 458 Socom case called again? I’ve seen a 30 cal wildcat which had pretty impressive results - of course, conceding to pretty short little bullets too - but it’s a big case.

Tungsten powder bullets help SD and function at a larger range of velocities. And that wouldn't necessarily be a requirement. 55gr plinker rounds could be traditional and 75gr tungsten core could be long range/hunting rounds. If I'm dreaming, might as well make the tungsten round two piece fury cases to boost the power and leave the 55gr regular brass. And push the shoulder back a little and sharpen the angle. Trim the case to 1.3xx" and keep it under 1.68" total

Grip fed makes the overall gun length shorter and changes the balance. Having less power only makes a gun "less interesting" if you want more power. Plenty of people seem interested in the CMR30 and 22 WMR has a lot less power...
 
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Neck a 45 win. mag down to .357 and basically have a rimless 357/44 Bain & Davis . Build a modernized , tighter spec. M1 carbine , with a little heavier barrel profile , and an optical sight with marks out to 500 yards , or meters . Pair it with an autoloading pistol , and have them both run on the same magazines .

Or do what they should of done in 1942 or 3 , and shorten the 30 rem . strengthen the head of it , and necked it to .257 or .284 . then fit it into an enlarged M1 carbine and been an American version of Sturmgewehr .That round would double stack in magazines.
 
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Or do what they should of done in 1942 or 3 , and shorten the 30 rem . strengthen the head of it , and necked it to .257 or .284 . then fit it into an enlarged M1 carbine and been an American version of Sturmgewehr .That round would double stack in magazines.

... or .277 and call it the SPC ;)

I would prefer the 6mm, but I would take the rimless 357/44 Bain & Davis over the 5.7x28, but I don't think a 6.8 SPC is fitting in a pistol grip.
 
Definitely not getting the 6.8spc into a 1.6" magazine. And I'm not sure we can even remotely approach that level of performance.

Building the cartridge on a whiteboard is actually pretty simple. We simply need a case fat enough that it can fit enough powder when short enough to still get ~35grn H2O capacity in a 1.0-1.1" case, and enough bore capacity to get up over 2000fps in whatever length barrel you're seeking. I'd rather have a larger bore, in that case, offering a heavier bullet for increased impact downrange, and I'll concede that a smaller bore than my 357/44mag might make sense, landing somewhere around 7mm to 30 cal - but we start losing powder capacity and bore efficiency as we neck down more and more. So something in a standard .473" bolt face should have plenty of capacity, then squish the shoulder back on something like the 7mm BR to be a 7mm Super Short, find some stubby little short ogive, flat based bullets in the 100-130 class and we'd likely get >2300fps out of a 1.6" OAL, still have enough bullet to do work on the business end, whether from a 10" barrel PDW or 16" rifle.

But then things get pretty weird on the other end - the firearm we have to build around the cartridge. When you've mentioned the extreme pressure standard used in the two/three piece 6.8x51/277 Fury, things get even more complicated. I'll admit, I don't look too closely at this, but I can't think of any grip-borne magazine repeaters which are wrapped around cartridges with 55,000-80,000psi pressure standards - for good reason. The 5.7x28 we've discussed is as close as I can recall, and we've discussed the design concessions which had to be made to make that function properly (special case coatings, delayed blowback & dynamic barrel mounting). We see the 44mag and 50AE Desert Eagle being gas operated. So, compared to conventional PDW type actions like the blowback CMR30, we know - in my best trolling boat captain voice - "we're gonna need a bigger boat." Like I said before, getting someone to design a gas operated action which COULD do the job might be easier than designing and manufacturing magazines for this...

I can tell you - the performance we're talking about is REALLY close to what I chased for ~20yrs before landing on my 357/44 B&D. Granted, I do have bigger game in mind than personal defense, and I'm working within the bounds of "customization" rather than pure "fabrication," but I played with 30-30 and 7-30 waters in specialty pistols which also approached these performance standards when pressed to Encore tolerances, rather then Contender limits. I did a "22 Hondo" which was a 218 Bee, shortened to allow 50grn bullets to fit into Ruger Single 6 cylinders, which obviously gave up a lot of performance to what we're discussing here, since it's only a .349" web dia, rather than the .473" we could be using...

It's a fun idea, as long as the realities are accepted - it's not a major market opportunity, and it gives up a LOT of performance to swallow the subjective criteria of a grip-borne magazine and the subsequently short 1.6" OAL. If we want super short lengths, let's talk bullpups - putting the magazine behind the grip allows even shorter length and commensurately longer barrel lengths for improved performance (and these still aren't popular), with not so dissimilar manual of arms to load/reload. But the world just started getting excited about mini-length cartridges about 20yrs ago, and that only to fit into a well established firearm design with ~40yrs of war under its belt - I'm not terribly certain we're ready to get excited about microlength cartridges.

Heck, the fact the Keltec CMR30 is alone in market is kind of indicative of market interest.
 
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Definitely not getting the 6.8spc into a 1.6" magazine. And I'm not sure we can even remotely approach that level of performance.

Building the cartridge on a whiteboard is actually pretty simple. We simply need a case fat enough that it can fit enough powder when short enough to still get ~35grn H2O capacity in a 1.0-1.1" case, and enough bore capacity to get up over 2000fps in whatever length barrel you're seeking. I'd rather have a larger bore, in that case, offering a heavier bullet for increased impact downrange, and I'll concede that a smaller bore than my 357/44mag might make sense, landing somewhere around 7mm to 30 cal - but we start losing powder capacity and bore efficiency as we neck down more and more. So something in a standard .473" bolt face should have plenty of capacity, then squish the shoulder back on something like the 7mm BR to be a 7mm Super Short, find some stubby little short ogive, flat based bullets in the 100-130 class and we'd likely get >2300fps out of a 1.6" OAL, still have enough bullet to do work on the business end, whether from a 10" barrel PDW or 16" rifle.

But then things get pretty weird on the other end - the firearm we have to build around the cartridge. When you've mentioned the extreme pressure standard used in the two/three piece 6.8x51/277 Fury, things get even more complicated. I'll admit, I don't look too closely at this, but I can't think of any grip-borne magazine repeaters which are wrapped around cartridges with 55,000-80,000psi pressure standards - for good reason. The 5.7x28 we've discussed is as close as I can recall, and we've discussed the design concessions which had to be made to make that function properly (special case coatings, delayed blowback & dynamic barrel mounting). We see the 44mag and 50AE Desert Eagle being gas operated. So, compared to conventional PDW type actions like the blowback CMR30, we know - in my best trolling boat captain voice - "we're gonna need a bigger boat." Like I said before, getting someone to design a gas operated action which COULD do the job might be easier than designing and manufacturing magazines for this...

I can tell you - the performance we're talking about is REALLY close to what I chased for ~20yrs before landing on my 357/44 B&D. Granted, I do have bigger game in mind than personal defense, and I'm working within the bounds of "customization" rather than pure "fabrication," but I played with 30-30 and 7-30 waters in specialty pistols which also approached these performance standards when pressed to Encore tolerances, rather then Contender limits. I did a "22 Hondo" which was a 218 Bee, shortened to allow 50grn bullets to fit into Ruger Single 6 cylinders, which obviously gave up a lot of performance to what we're discussing here, since it's only a .349" web dia, rather than the .473" we could be using...

It's a fun idea, as long as the realities are accepted - it's not a major market opportunity, and it gives up a LOT of performance to swallow the subjective criteria of a grip-borne magazine and the subsequently short 1.6" OAL. If we want super short lengths, let's talk bullpups - putting the magazine behind the grip allows even shorter length and commensurately longer barrel lengths for improved performance (and these still aren't popular), with not so dissimilar manual of arms to load/reload. But the world just started getting excited about mini-length cartridges about 20yrs ago, and that only to fit into a well established firearm design with ~40yrs of war under its belt - I'm not terribly certain we're ready to get excited about microlength cartridges.

Heck, the fact the Keltec CMR30 is alone in market is kind of indicative of market interest.

I don't think much will happen with the micro action either. I just enjoyed the thought of it. If I win the lotto I'll make it happen.

I have a 30 Bellm contender barrel. Maybe 10" Does fine on whitetail in my opinion.

I would put the Ruger LC carbine in 5.7 in the same category as the CMR-30
 
I would put the Ruger LC carbine in 5.7 in the same category as the CMR-30

Eh, MAYBE, which is really acknowledging the 5.7 is effectively a centerfire 22mag, so the Ruger LC carbine is their version of a FN P90, and the CMR-30 is Keltecs version of the same, but without the burden of the design modification required for the 5.7.

How well are any of these 3 selling? Novelties at best, from two companies known for releasing novelty/specialty models.
 
If the soldier's rifle jams having a sidearm could save a life. If it is a different cartridge he only has his backup ammo.

A pistol isn’t a bad thing to have if the rifle is disabled but the goal should be to get you to a rifle.

Maybe practice malfunction drills. Even shooting 3gun games, I would clear the malfunction vs try and engage distant rifle targets with a handgun.

If you manage to successfully make it through a gun battle out gunned (rifle vs pistol) and the dead guy/gal’s rifle still functions, pick it up. If your buddy didn’t make it and his or her rifle still works, pick it up instead of drawing your pistol.
 
Went down this rabbit whole again today. Some things I've learned.... There have been some other PDW cartridges developed in the past. Three new ones I found today were the 5.56x30mm MARS, 9x30mm MARS, and 9x30mm GROM. The first was developed by Colt and was s 5.56 shorted to 30mm. Beat the 5.7 but a good margin. It was developed for a micro action AR with shortened mags. The 9x30mm MARS (Colt) and GROM might be the same. I think they were both based on the 10mm Magnum. There was a Russian grip fed rifle that fired the GROM round.

There is also the 22 Reed Express (7.62x25 parent case) that was chambered in some pistols cz-52, 1911 and M-9 (92FS). 2500fps w/ 45gr out of a 10" barrel.

There was a Masterpiece Arms MPA5700SST that was like the Ruger and fired a 5.7X28MM. Now they only sell the pistol.
The Grendel R-31 that fired the 22 mag.
MAG-7 - 12 guage

https://smallarmsreview.com/colts-5-56x30mm-mars-mini-assault-rifle-system-program/
http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-November01.html

Unrelated I think the 9x39mm was the OG Blackout.
 

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Interesting discussion. But at the end of the day, the old adage that a handgun is just a means to get to a rifle has been, and will always be, true.
 


30 Super Carry. Flatter shooting than 9mm or 380? Moving in the right direction. But still not as good as the Furyized 6mm ARC Short.
 
Long Range Pistol/Carbine Cartridge
Long range pistol caliber carbine you say?

I believe and can see .350 Legend or 9x43mm becoming such caliber.

Why?

With ability to load with easily obtained 9mm components like 147 gr projectiles and work up accurate longer range loads to several hundred yards, .350 Legend affords cheaper practice while premium bullets for hunting/long range work.

Ballistics listed below would also translate to very effective personal defensive work as well - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.350_Legend
  • 160 gr Federal Fusion 2,300 fsp, 1,879 ft⋅lb
  • 165 gr Hornady FTX 2,200 fps, 1,773 ft⋅lb
  • 180 gr Winchester 2,100 fps, 1,762 ft⋅lb
 
Long range pistol caliber carbine you say?

I believe and can see .350 Legend or 9x43mm becoming such caliber.

Why?

With ability to load with easily obtained 9mm components like 147 gr projectiles and work up accurate longer range loads to several hundred yards, .350 Legend affords cheaper practice while premium bullets for hunting/long range work.

Ballistics listed below would also translate to very effective personal defensive work as well - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.350_Legend
  • 160 gr Federal Fusion 2,300 fsp, 1,879 ft⋅lb
  • 165 gr Hornady FTX 2,200 fps, 1,773 ft⋅lb
  • 180 gr Winchester 2,100 fps, 1,762 ft⋅lb
I think 2.25" is too long to fit in a pistol grip.

But also I guess 7.5 FK is a thing. 100gr @ 2000fps. 1.35" overall. I still think there is something halfway between that and 221 fireball / 256 Win Mag. 6mm 90-100 gr @ 2500 (16" barrel) at 1.65" overall.
 

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The 6mm-221 may not interest me in a semi-auto pistol, but I sure like the 17 Mach IV and the 20 Vartarg in a center-grip XP-100 or a rear-grip XP. I like the Fireball family!

17 Mach IV
View attachment 1140469

20 Vartarg with original H-S stock (RH)
View attachment 1140470

20 Vartarg with new Ambidextrous stock
View attachment 1140471

221 FBI (Fireball Improved)
View attachment 1140472

Heh Heh, no more scurry scurry, dig dig for you dog boy! (Extreme western Kansas / Colorado dogger back in the 70's with Dad).
 
I know this performance can be exceeded by a larger diameter case, again necked down to a small projectile, but this has been my answer to the “long range deer hunting revolver” problem. I went through various super magnum cartridges, 460 & 500 S&W, 445SM, 357Max, 357/44 Bobcat (stupid poly carb collars), 256win, 22 Jet, 22 Hornet & K-Hornet… and finally stumbled upon the 357/44 Bain & Davis about 10 years ago. This pursuit was significantly hindered by the non-existence of the right combination of bullet weight and construction for given calibers. But drawing the Speer .358” 180 grain HotCor through a .357” bullet sizing die offers the right mix of short bearing surface, short ogive, while being sufficiently robust to hold together at relatively extremely high impact velocities for a revolver cartridge without being so tough to not expand at relatively low impact velocities for a rifle cartridge.
View attachment 1139963 View attachment 1139966

Over substantial charges of H110, I can get this 180 grain bullet up over 1900fps from a 7.5” Redhawk barrel. I am sourcing parts currently to build a Marlin 1894 in the same, and expect another 300-400fps from a 20” barrel. My objective with this pursuit was to create a revolver truly capable of taking deer out to 250yrds - and my load is hitting harder at 250 than a conventional .357 magnum would with the muzzle pressed against the hide.

Less recoil and a smaller revolver than a 460 S&W X-Frame, and nearly a whole 0.1 higher BC, my B&D is actually meeting and beating the 460 at 250yrds on energy, velocity, sectional density, and trajectory… in a revolver ~30% lighter.

Love me some B&D. My first was a rechambered BH done by them back in the early 80s. Still have their load data somewhere that they shipped back with my cylinder and a few fired cases. Sold that gem and got a 10” Contender barrel…that was even more fun!

Then I stumbled on Gary Reeders 356 GNR, a 41 Magnum necked down to 357. More of the same, but I think better balanced.
 
The 6mm-221 may not interest me in a semi-auto pistol, but I sure like the 17 Mach IV and the 20 Vartarg in a center-grip XP-100 or a rear-grip XP. I like the Fireball family!

17 Mach IV
View attachment 1140469

20 Vartarg with original H-S stock (RH)
View attachment 1140470

20 Vartarg with new Ambidextrous stock
View attachment 1140471

221 FBI (Fireball Improved)
View attachment 1140472

Serious question. I have a good bit of new FB brass and I can’t decide between the MachIV(or FB) and the 20 VT. I’ve questioned some of the guys on another small caliber board, and they are all over the place. Thought I might pick your brain. I’d be doing a rifle, not a handgun.
 
Serious question. I have a good bit of new FB brass and I can’t decide between the MachIV(or FB) and the 20 VT. I’ve questioned some of the guys on another small caliber board, and they are all over the place. Thought I might pick your brain. I’d be doing a rifle, not a handgun.

Distance and twist rate you are considering?
Depends a lot on usage, which may be more advantageous to you.
 
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