CAS 357 Magnum load underperforms - Crimping issue or ??

I contacted UniqueTek, and Lee there recommended this item:

https://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1736

There are 2 slightly different sizes, and he recommended the one that works for .3755" to .3800" bullets. It appears though that I'll need to order it direct from UniqueTek - no Canadian dealerships. That will take a WHILE for "international" shipping and Canadian Customs processing.

Note that Lee recommended getting the Lee Factory Crimpt die also, as a number of you have recommended within this thread.

Jim G
 
Is the Hornady the only bullet available to you? Seems there is a multitude of other companies making quality CAS type bullets that sell for the same price or less than the Hornady's, and are readily available around here. Acme is one(local Wisconsin based company). Many of these are cast and slightly harder and should not swag down when seated. Seems to me(at least), the first thing I would do is try a different bullet, before I invest in dies and effort in a possible chasing my tail situation.
 
Is the Hornady the only bullet available to you? Seems there is a multitude of other companies making quality CAS type bullets that sell for the same price or less than the Hornady's, and are readily available around here. Acme is one(local Wisconsin based company). Many of these are cast and slightly harder and should not swag down when seated. Seems to me(at least), the first thing I would do is try a different bullet, before I invest in dies and effort in a possible chasing my tail situation.
@JimGnitecki is in Canada. From what was in his previous post, it seems the situation is he would have to import anything he couldn’t source domestic and that requires all sorts of paperwork and legalities. That would drive the price up and create legal risk. If I’m reading what he wrote previously correctly.
 
After reading all of the posts above, it reminded me of a discussion I had previously some across in regard to the lack of an expander function in the standard Dillon setup. It was a longish thread and an bunch of folks all ended up agreeing that Dillon was not doing their customers right by leaving out this function. The expander function is a standard part of a normal reloading dies for several very good reasons.

Strange, my Dillon "powder funnel" does a good job as expand and flare. The OP's problem is that he needs a different one for his large soft bullets. I still think he is getting some effect from his seating die, he reported the diameter of what he calls the "shank" of the bullet above the case mouth. That is not affected by tight brass and should not be touched by the seating die.

I did try another brand of aftermarket powder funnel that claimed to have the "M" step that I wanted for some square based cast bullets but it did not deliver, the step was almost imperceptible.
 
After reading all of the posts above, it reminded me of a discussion I had previously some across in regard to the lack of an expander function in the standard Dillon setup. It was a longish thread and an bunch of folks all ended up agreeing that Dillon was not doing their customers right by leaving out this function. The expander function is a standard part of a normal reloading dies for several very good reasons.

Dillions “bottle neck” dies have expanders in the decapping stem and their “straight wall” dies do not, like everyone does.

The expander for straight wall rounds is in the powder funnel, it expands the case and can flare the mouth as well. Their rifle funnels actuate the powder measure from the shoulder.

65F29905-E5C3-4954-A7DB-E1A8C18F50F7.jpeg

The 4 digit Dillon presses use a different powder funnel than the others (right) they just flare, because the expander is on the back up rod for the swage station (black parts) the center expander funnel is what you would have with an Sd/550/650/750 though.

42291BA8-2D1E-4E93-AB7C-AEF8B9D1488A.jpeg

That said, Dillon does not include the powder funnel/expander with their dies, it comes with the caliber conversion kit you buy for whatever press you have.
 
@JimGnitecki is in Canada. From what was in his previous post, it seems the situation is he would have to import anything he couldn’t source domestic and that requires all sorts of paperwork and legalities. That would drive the price up and create legal risk. If I’m reading what he wrote previously correctly.

Jim should get a hold of Western Munitions-Western Metals bullets in Galgary. They should have what he may need.
 
@JimGnitecki is in Canada. From what was in his previous post, it seems the situation is he would have to import anything he couldn’t source domestic and that requires all sorts of paperwork and legalities. That would drive the price up and create legal risk. If I’m reading what he wrote previously correctly.
I am curious if the expanders I posted would require any special treatment. They are firearms equipment but unless you really knew you could call them almost anything and even most shooters would have no idea what they were.
 

THIS would normally be very helpful, BUT there is actually a statement on that webpage that says they are out of stock like everyone else. :(

The price at $95 per 500 is also a bit high, being $.19 each PLUS shipping, and shipping cost on lead bullets is brutal. I am getting the Hornady 10408 bullets for $.173 each plus shipping. However, if Western Metal ever gets them in stock they could still come in at a comaprable cost to the Hornady or close to it, since Calgary is much closer to me than my current source. The City of Calgary is only about 230km = 143 miles from me.

Jim G
 
It looks like what I would need to experiment further with the Hornady 10408 bullet in the meantime is both the UniqueTek drop-in expander and the Lee Factory Crimp die.

In contacted UniqueTek and they gave me the correct part number to order, but it Looks like no Canadian distributor so I need to order from them directly and they are in The U.S. of course. I THINK there is no prohibition on a non-licensed individual importing what is merely a machine part, not a firearms part or ammunition. It is officially called an "HTC Powder Funnel part no. T1736-02". And it's not terribly expensive at $43US, but after conversion to Canadian dollars without current crappy exchange rate it is $61 plus "international" shipping plus Canadian Federal sales tax plus any customs duties that might be applicable to machine parts, and the customs duties cannot in real life be determined in advance due to effective lack of transparency in the published info. :)

The Lee Factory Crimp Die is available to me from a Canadian source at $29 plus tax and shipping, so that piece of the solution is easier, faster, and cheaper, which is great.

So my total cost for both pieces of a potential solution is going to run maybe $150 to $175 Canadian ($105 to $125 US), which is not a bargain but not awful either.

I think the experiment is worth trying since my apparent supply of the Hornady bullet looks consistent and durable. Plus, I think "working" the cases from fired to .373" and then forcing them to expand again around a bullet (ANY lead ubjacketed bullet for.357 Mag) that starts at .358" or so seems like unnecessary wear and tear on the cases. The UniquTek expander funnel seems like a more gentle and appropriate way to prep the cases for the bullets.

Jim G
 
It looks like what I would need to experiment further with the Hornady 10408 bullet in the meantime is both the UniqueTek drop-in expander and the Lee Factory Crimp die.

In contacted UniqueTek and they gave me the correct part number to order, but it Looks like no Canadian distributor so I need to order from them directly and they are in The U.S. of course. I THINK there is no prohibition on a non-licensed individual importing what is merely a machine part, not a firearms part or ammunition. It is officially called an "HTC Powder Funnel part no. T1736-02". And it's not terribly expensive at $43US, but after conversion to Canadian dollars without current crappy exchange rate it is $61 plus "international" shipping plus Canadian Federal sales tax plus any customs duties that might be applicable to machine parts, and the customs duties cannot in real life be determined in advance due to effective lack of transparency in the published info. :)

The Lee Factory Crimp Die is available to me from a Canadian source at $29 plus tax and shipping, so that piece of the solution is easier, faster, and cheaper, which is great.

So my total cost for both pieces of a potential solution is going to run maybe $150 to $175 Canadian ($105 to $125 US), which is not a bargain but not awful either.

I think the experiment is worth trying since my apparent supply of the Hornady bullet looks consistent and durable. Plus, I think "working" the cases from fired to .373" and then forcing them to expand again around a bullet (ANY lead ubjacketed bullet for.357 Mag) that starts at .358" or so seems like unnecessary wear and tear on the cases. The UniquTek expander funnel seems like a more gentle and appropriate way to prep the cases for the bullets.

Jim G
My solution was 25 bucks plus shipping. In a cost benifit analysis, why spend more?
 
AJC1, that solution appeared to use a separate die. That would require me to remove my powder checker die. I want to keep that powder checker die.
 
The UniqueTek expander funnel in the Dillon powder station also is apparently highly polished and notably longer than the Dilllon funnel, so it reduces the jarring you get when the Dillon funnel gets yanked back OUT of the case. I am thinking that the UniqueTek expander funnel might also be a GREAT way to reduce the bit of powder spillage I sometimes get on my other XL750 which is set up to deliver a powerful 9mm semiauto handload that fills the case very high.

That jerk you get when the Dillon funnel withdraws from the case is enough to sometimes spill some of the powder, which destroys the consistency of a handload that otherwise delivers remarkable accuracy AND a 1375 fps muzzle velocity.

Jim G
 
If you found a cheap (used should be fine) standard 3 die set for 357, could you add an expander station and then have a combined seat/crimp as the last station. With a good expander plug I am betting you do not really need the Lee Factory Crimp die.

You may even be able to borrow a standard set of dies just to see how it works. Surly someone in a crowd of CAS shooters would be in a position to help.
 
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If you found a cheap (used should be fine) standard 3 die set for 357, could you add an expander station and then have a combined seat/crimp as the last station. With a good expander plug I am betting you do not really need the Lee Factory Crimp die.

You may even be able to borrow a standard set of dies just to see how it works. Surly someone in a crowd of CAS shooters would be in a position to help.

That IS a possibility, but I hesitate because I've repeatedly been told that trying to do both in one die is not a recommended practice.

I think a better expander funnel substituted for the Dillon funnel sounds more attractive. I have high hopes for that UniqueTek expander funnel because it was originally targeted at Bullseye shooters trying to improve their .38 SWC and wadcutter handloads, because they had exactly the same issue I have: bullets being swaged tighter than intended by the Dillon's sizing die and then insufficiently enlarged by the Dillon powder funnel, via unideal diameter and LENGTH, and getting a notable "jerk" upon withdrawal of the case from the funnel due to inadequate smoothness in the expanding portion of it.

Jim G
 
That IS a possibility, but I hesitate because I've repeatedly been told that trying to do both in one die is not a recommended practice.

I think a better expander funnel substituted for the Dillon funnel sounds more attractive. I have high hopes for that UniqueTek expander funnel because it was originally targeted at Bullseye shooters trying to improve their .38 SWC and wadcutter handloads, because they had exactly the same issue I have: bullets being swaged tighter than intended by the Dillon's sizing die and then insufficiently enlarged by the Dillon powder funnel, via unideal diameter and LENGTH, and getting a notable "jerk" upon withdrawal of the case from the funnel due to inadequate smoothness in the expanding portion of it.

Jim G

If the two steps are at separate stations it’s easy to change either without needing to change the other. When you combine the two, they are no longer independent.

I don’t know what the tolerance of Dillion expanders are but I do know they have changed the design over the years. 30 years ago they machined ~50% away in the center of the expander. I assumed for reduced friction (like the one on the left vs. how they are made now on the right).

026F9CD3-AC80-4DA8-A689-82A43714F7F7.jpeg

A lot of “jerk” can be smoothed out with the right polish in the tumbler or if you wet clean, using a case lube.

Lots of folks have seen changes when they switch how they clean cases.
 
I use the M style expander from Double Alpha, I believe it is similar to the UniqueTek. Either one should do fine. When I open the Double Alpha website I have to choose a region and Canada is a choice. Just FYI.
Even with carbide dies, I also spray with a shot of Hornady One Shot case lube prior to reloading and it does smooth out press operations.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/mr-bulletfeeder-powder-funnel
 
If the two steps are at separate stations it’s easy to change either without needing to change the other. When you combine the two, they are no longer independent.

I don’t know what the tolerance of Dillion expanders are but I do know they have changed the design over the years. 30 years ago they machined ~50% away in the center of the expander. I assumed for reduced friction (like the one on the left vs. how they are made now on the right).

View attachment 1141716

A lot of “jerk” can be smoothed out with the right polish in the tumbler or if you wet clean, using a case lube.

Lots of folks have seen changes when they switch how they clean cases.

Thanks for psoting those photos, JMorris. Notice that while the "tapering transition" section of the new one is a bit longer than the old one (to reduce the jerk a bit), the actuall "full expander diameter" is about the same length as the old one. The Bullseye shooters discovered that the full epxander diameter section was too short to handle the length of the SWC and wadcutter bullets they were using. So, the bullet got swaged down at the powder drop station.

Sure, you can add an expander dies AFTER that to restore the correct ID to the case, but why work the brass case TWICE (underexpand at the powder drop and then expand deeper at a separate station)?

Apparently, the UniqueTek expander is longer length to address this: it expands the case to (a) sufficient ID and (b) sufficient LENGHT of sufficient ID, by being the exact correct ID AND the correct length to make the case accept the bullet without deforming it. It also is polished to address the higher friction that the longer length of expanding creates. UniqueTek even offers this expander funnel with 2 slightly different diameters for slightly different diameter bullets. That sounds to me like good attention to detail.

If all the above is true, then the UniqueTek seems like an intelligent solution, worth the $44 plus shipping they charge. Of course, my online credit card statement this morning shows that amount, including shipping, translates to $95.80 CDN with the current US to Canadian exchange rate!

I do use a bit of car polish in my corn cob, which brightens the cases a bit and also makes them a bit more slippery. But the jerk on my .357 Mag Dillon XL750 at the powder station is still notable. Much more notable than the sizing die friction.

Jim G
 
I use the M style expander from Double Alpha, I believe it is similar to the UniqueTek. Either one should do fine. When I open the Double Alpha website I have to choose a region and Canada is a choice. Just FYI.
Even with carbide dies, I also spray with a shot of Hornady One Shot case lube prior to reloading and it does smooth out press operations.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/mr-bulletfeeder-powder-funnel

I have purchased from Double Alpha a number of times, as they often have availability when others do not. But their "Canadian" website is there ONLY to show the higher Canadian prices! The shipping is still from The U.S., and the shipping cost and the international shipping time and the customs delays and charges still apply!

And that Double Alpha expander is intended for the Mr. BulletFeeder, not the Dillon powder drop.

I have been afraid to use anything like Hornady One Shot because in order for it to work, it has to leave a layer of lubricant on the case, and that lubricant might affect powder drop (via its by-definition stickiness) and bullet-to-case fricition (which affects peak pressure developed in the case before bullet release). I prefer the car polish in the corn cob approach for its lack of stickiness and its CONSISTENT coating versus any spray.

Jim G
 
My goodness, some much effort into loading 357 mag for CAS??

View attachment 1141743

Yes for a couple of reasons:

- I intend to shoot the revolvers and rifle outside of CAS as well as for CAS

- I subscribe to the "Only accurate firearms are interesting" school of thought. Revolver groups larger than 3" at 25 yards just don't cut it with me. I want to deliver projectiles as accurately as I can given reasonable quality measures, not just do the equivalent of throwing stones at the target. :)

Jim G
 
If all the above is true, then the UniqueTek seems like an intelligent solution, worth the $44 plus shipping they charge. Of course, my online credit card statement this morning shows that amount, including shipping, translates to $95.80 CDN with the current US to Canadian exchange rate!

I would add this to the list of reasons I own lathes.
 
I have not read the whole thread as it makes my eyes bleed, there is so much static and extraneous information. Information overload!
357 mag loads are not this difficult

You have gone from you go to load using Trail Boss. It probably gave you good case fill
Now that you are using Tite Boom, in that big case,how is the case fill?
If already discussed that never mind.

Have you considered powder position in the case?. Could be what ale's you:uhoh:
 
I have been following along and the OP went TG because he could not replace his TB. Trail Boss has been discontinued by Hodgdon/IMR so if you like it, buy all you see left on the shelf.
 
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