What's with the P320?

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Col. Harrumph

Col. Harrumph

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I'm reading about what appears to be a class-action lawsuit in the making, against SIG. The complaint is that the P320 can fire while holstered with hands free. Note: not while holstering. Several cops are among the plaintiffs. (This is the version without a manual safety.) It's not a Nambu, so how would this be possible?
 
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First thing I did was check the date of this post. I was expecting it to be a five year old thread.

Early P320's apparently did have some issues, but SIG did an "upgrade" program, and probably fixed the problem. It is a very popular gun for many uses, MIL/LE/Competition/Personal Defense.

It seems as if there is now an industry growing up around suing SIG for unintended/negligent discharges. I'm not sure whether any of these claims have any merit.
 
Unless there is something seriously mechanically wrong with your P320, it isn't firing without the trigger being pulled.

The first gen guns had really light triggers and if dropped in a certain way the trigger would basically pull itself. That was fixed.
 
C-grunt said:
The first gen guns had really light triggers and if dropped in a certain way the trigger would basically pull itself. That was fixed.
Click to expand...
A company tries to appease people who insist a gun has to have a super light trigger for it to be acceptable, and it bites them in the ass. Who'd have thunk? :p

SIG always had great, realistic triggers on their guns in the past. Sounds like they shouldn't listen to those who insist they need crutches to be able to shoot well. ;)
 
Yes, there is a suit.

SIG-Sauer has responded to allegations of spontaneous discharge by saying that P320 pistols that are or have been subjected to shock or vibration may fire without having the trigger pressed,

This applies to the current model and to pistols that have been modified to remedy the drop problem. The trigger pull is heavier than that on the originals.

The levels of shock or vibration were not specified, and users are advised to decide for themselves what to do about it.
 
Who is this guy, what are his qualifications, and what is he trying to say, if anything, that may be relevant to this thread?
 
The lawsuit(s) are being filed due to incidents that have happened with newer generation P320s and with older P320s that have been serviced by SIG. Yes, there was an acknowledged issue with early generation P320s, but the lawsuits - and those that have been injured - allege these issues persist. Perhaps as many as 20 times this model has discharged over the last couple of years, and one consistent allegation is that it discharged uncommanded.

Wounded Officers Sue Sig Sauer, Say Gun Goes Off by Itself | Military.com
Wyo Highway Patrol Got Rid Of Sig Sauer Pistols After Trooper’s Gun Discharged Accidentally - Cowboy State Daily
Lawsuit alleges 20 new injuries from Sig Sauer P320 pistol that plaintiffs claim fires without trigger pull | New Hampshire Public Radio (nhpr.org)
 
Kleanbore said:
Who is this guy, what are his qualifications, and what is he trying to say, if anything, that may be relevant to this thread?
Click to expand...

Don't know who he is or his qualifications. The video shows how the striker block works and how the gun will not fire without the trigger being pulled, baring any mechanical failure.
 
C-grunt said:
The video shows how the striker block works and how the gun will not fire without the trigger being pulled, baring any mechanical failure.
Click to expand...
Is that the older version that can fire when dropped?
 
One thing that's been noted in other shooting groups Im apart of regarding these lawsuits.

Notice how ALL of these lawsuits claiming the gun fires by itself, all have happened when the operator was handling the gun. Usually while re-holstering the weapon. I haven't seen any accounts of the gun randomly firing while in a safe or in a locker.
 
JTQ said:
First thing I did was check the date of this post. I was expecting it to be a five year old thread.

Early P320's apparently did have some issues, but SIG did an "upgrade" program, and probably fixed the problem. It is a very popular gun for many uses, MIL/LE/Competition/Personal Defense.

It seems as if there is now an industry growing up around suing SIG for unintended/negligent discharges. I'm not sure whether any of these claims have any merit.
Click to expand...

Yes, there have been multiple new lawsuits filed in recent months regarding the latest generation of p320 allegedly firing uncommanded. Several police departments have even decertified the p320 because of actual incidents involving their officers. Interestingly, I think I read something about the problem not affecting the manual thumb safety models so apparently the military -- which has the greatest number of the guns in operation I think - is not reporting the problem. Personally, I don't think I'd feel confident carrying that gun....
 
C-grunt said:
Notice how ALL of these lawsuits claiming the gun fires by itself, all have happened when the operator was handling the gun. Usually while re-holstering the weapon.
Click to expand...
Not true.

There have been numerous incidents, but is there more than one suit?

How do you explain SIG's comments RE: uncommanded discharges associated with shock and vibration?
 
C-grunt said:
Notice how ALL of these lawsuits claiming the gun fires by itself, all have happened when the operator was handling the gun.
Click to expand...
I find it hard to believe, that all 20 of them are idiots not knowing how to handle a gun... And you are wrong - they claim the guns were holstered.

Kleanbore said:
Is that the older version that can fire when dropped?
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter, because it was a different mechanical issue - trigger disengaged the sear and firing pin safety by moving back when dropped. Now it's a completely different event.
 
There are three reasons that I would not carry one:
  1. The number of reports of uncommanded discharges that have not been resolved
  2. SIG's rather nondescript announcement about the risk of shock and vibration
  3. I happen to prefer pistols with grip safeties
Attorney Andrew Branca bought a SIG 320. His has the manual safety. For him, the trigger pull was a major selling point, but after the recall, the trigger was noticeably less desirable.
 
And since the system s the official Armed services fire arm. Yeah I know it has a manual safety. Maybe it should have had all along. All the Sig Gurus I know do say the width of trigger is problematic especially on the early ones. Ths can set up a partial loading of the trigger pull if it rubs on inside of a otherwise properly holstered weapon. GrayGuns replacement triggers create an even lighter , crisper pull , but the design of trigger stays within the trigger bow more AND the geometry is slightly changed. There have been zero problems with GrayGun triggers. On a personal level I have added a manual safety to my Sig 320 platforms , just like the military . I actually prefer DA/SA decocker guns in my old age as my skills decrease.
 
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Mizar said:
I find it hard to believe, that all 20 of them are idiots not knowing how to handle a gun... And you are wrong - they claim the guns were holstered.
Click to expand...

That goes along with what Im saying. The gun is being handled. Stuff gets in holsters. It's a known issue to look out for in the LE world.

But I haven't seen any case of the sear and striker assembly randomly failing while the gun was in a locker or in a safe.

On a related note, there have been many reported cases by LE of Glocks "randomly" firing while sitting in the holster. We know that's not what's happening.
 
C-grunt said:
The gun is being handled.
Click to expand...
Guns that were not "being handled" have discharged spontaneously.
C-grunt said:
But I haven't seen any case of the sear and striker assembly randomly failing while the gun was in a locker or in a safe.
Click to expand...
Physically, there is no difference between a gun sitting on a table in the open or sitting on a surface on a locker or a safe.
C-grunt said:
On a related note, there have been many reported cases by LE of Glocks "randomly" firing while sitting in the holster.
Click to expand...
Those were attributed to movement by the operators that rreulted in something pulling the trigger.

SIG has said that guns that are or that have been subjected to unspecified levels of shock or vibration can fire without the trigger having been pressed. That, if you will, is the "smoking gun".
 
C-grunt said:
On a related note, there have been many reported cases by LE of Glocks "randomly" firing while sitting in the holster. We know that's not what's happening.
Click to expand...
That was a long time ago, when striker fired pistols just started to enter the LE market and people were not familiar with them - now it's completely different situation with striker fired guns ruling the LE world. In other words, this is a moot point - you don't see such lawsuits on a daily basis, right?
 
C-grunt said:
But I haven't seen any case of the sear and striker assembly randomly failing while the gun was in a locker or in a safe.
Click to expand...

A gun in a locker or a safe isn't subject to vibrations significant enough to have it fail. My understanding is that the failures occur with situations such as the holster being bumped, causing enough of a vibration to have the gun fire.
 
Kleanbore said:
SIG has said that guns that are or that have been subjected to unspecified levels of shock or vibration can fire without the trigger having been pressed. That, if you will, is the "smoking gun".
Click to expand...

Do you have a link to this statement?

I just spent 15 minutes googling and the only statements from Sig I can find *post recall* are that the gun will not fire without the trigger being pulled.
 
C-grunt said:
Do you have a link to this statement?

I just spent 15 minutes googling and the only statements from Sig I can find *post recall* are that the gun will not fire without the trigger being pulled.
Click to expand...
I do not know whether it was posted on an open webpage. I say it in a discussion of the lawsuit among attorneys.. A Platinum membership to the Law of Self Defense website was needed to access the live discussion.

As I recall the discussion, the issue may be attributable to variations in manufacturing, which would make root case analysis very difficult indeed

This subject was discussed at some length here.

It should be understood that, whenever there is litigation regarding possible product liability involving injuries, public information will be extremely guarded, and one can Google until the cows come home and come up with nothing. Every single thing coming out of SIG will have been reviewed, edited, and approved by attorneys. In fact, should the suit be settled without going to trial, all parties will be forbidden from making any statements about the issue. That's enforced by a requirement to refund any damage awards in full.
 
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