LCR in 327 less accurate with 32 S&W Longs?

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WilsonCQB1911

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Jul 12, 2009
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TLDR: My LCR in 327 is stupid accurate with full house magnums, but displays less than stellar accuracy with 32 S&W Longs. What gives?



I have a high standard for accuracy when it comes to my pistols. I've sent on a lot of guns that were decent but didn't meet my standards out to 25 yards. I expect a gun to be able to outshoot me, and I'm a rather good shot.

My LCR in 327 is insanely accurate out to 25 yards with full house magnum loads. Six explosions go off in my hand and everything ends up in the 10 ring at 25 yards. It's a thing to behold. Love this little gun.

I notice that when shooting 32 S&W Longs the accuracy drops off quite a bit. The groups shift left of POA and open up quite a bit such that I generally only shoot out to 15 yards when using Longs. It doesn't seem to matter whether the load is a lead wadcutter or an FMJ. Initially I suspected leading may be the cause but that's not it.

I would have expected the Longs to give me even better accuracy given that there's zero chance of me pulling a shot by flinching since the recoil is so low. I'm thinking now that it might be the jump from the cylinder to the forcing cone, since the shorter cases have farther to go. I know there's a word for that but I can't remember it.

I don't care all that much. I'm not dropping this gun since it's amazing with the ammo I actually carry in it. I'm guessing I could overcome this if I wanted to handload, but I got out of that years ago and don't want to get back in.

I do wish that I could get the same accuracy I get with full house magnums with a low recoil practice load as it would make the range trip more enjoyable.
 
You are not going to want to read this, but the difference in accuracy is probably due to your follow through/flinch. The faster bullet will leave the barrel before you push the pistol a greater distance. Slow bullets, if the follow through is not perfect, the flinch reaction will push the pistol further before the bullet leaves the barre. Flinch/trigger pull errors will move the bullet a surprising distance.

The 32 S&W Long was a well established Bullseye Pistol target round, and I have shot next to shooters who were using it in competition. The thing will cut clusters at twenty five yards, and will hold the X ring at 50 yards. It is an inherently accurate round when loaded to a velocity that keeps the bullet from tumbling. Pistol bullets are very susceptible to tumbling at low velocities.

In print writers used to fill magazines with accuracy tests of 38 Specials in 38 Special revolvers, and 38 Specials in 357 Magnum revolvers. They seldom shot statistically meaningful group sizes, but accuracy differences were primarily due to the mechanical ability of the pistol, not the round.

This is a discussion of this issue from a Bullseye Pistol Forum

Accuracy of 38 Special from 357/38 revolver vs 38

Even though a 327 bullet is a different size, and the cartridges are different, I am confident that the inherent accuracy between a 32 S&W Long fired in a 327 chamber, and a 327 fired in a 327 chamber, are negligible. Any differences will due to the shooter's reaction during hammer fall.
 
Slamfire said:
You are not going to want to read this, but the difference in accuracy is probably due to your follow through/flinch. The faster bullet will leave the barrel before you push the pistol a greater distance. Slow bullets, if the follow through is not perfect, the flinch reaction will push the pistol further before the bullet leaves the barre. Flinch/trigger pull errors will move the bullet a surprising distance.

The 32 S&W Long was a well established Bullseye Pistol target round, and I have shot next to shooters who were using it in competition. The thing will cut clusters at twenty five yards, and will hold the X ring at 50 yards. It is an inherently accurate round when loaded to a velocity that keeps the bullet from tumbling. Pistol bullets are very susceptible to tumbling at low velocities.

In print writers used to fill magazines with accuracy tests of 38 Specials in 38 Special revolvers, and 38 Specials in 357 Magnum revolvers. They seldom shot statistically meaningful group sizes, but accuracy differences were primarily due to the mechanical ability of the pistol, not the round.

This is a discussion of this issue from a Bullseye Pistol Forum

Accuracy of 38 Special from 357/38 revolver vs 38

Even though a 327 bullet is a different size, and the cartridges are different, I am confident that the inherent accuracy between a 32 S&W Long fired in a 327 chamber, and a 327 fired in a 327 chamber, are negligible. Any differences will due to the shooter's reaction during hammer fall.
Click to expand...

I appreciate that. I really don't think that's the reason here though. If anything I'd expect flinching with the full house magnums. I feel quite confident I'm not pulling shots with the Longs.

Also, I'm not sure I buy that you can outpace a flinch with faster bullets. I've never heard the advice that if you have a flinch just move up to a hotter round and that'll cure your problem.
 
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WilsonCQB1911 said:
I appreciate that. I really don't think that's the reason here though. If anything I'd expect flinching with the full house magnums. I feel quite confident I'm not pulling shots with the Longs.
Click to expand...

I used to think I was a great pistol shot until I got into 2700 Bullseye Pistol. Shooting a pistol with one hand is just about impossible, everything has to be perfect at trigger pull and afterwards for the bullet to hit in the ten ring. One handed shooting is so sensitive to everything, how hard you grip the pistol, how hard you hit the trigger, and of course, heeling, pushing, and twisting. I was skeptical of the errors in these trigger pull charts

?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.jpg

but after years of 2700 Bullseye, I have found it is all true. And, I ain't that good of a pistol shot as I cannot control my flinch when shooting a 45 ACP. I am doing well with the 22 lr especially when everything feels "right" during recoil. My Ultra dot sight reveals my trigger pull sins. When the dot zips to one side or the other, it is me pushing or twisting the pistol. There is a characteristic flip when everything is correct, and all other flips show flinches.

Shoot enough rounds in competition, you will see patterns of sight alignment/trigger pull errors. And then you learn, it ain't the load, it ain't the gun, it is me.
 
Slamfire said:
I used to think I was a great pistol shot until I got into 2700 Bullseye Pistol. Shooting a pistol with one hand is just about impossible, everything has to be perfect at trigger pull and afterwards for the bullet to hit in the ten ring. One handed shooting is so sensitive to everything, how hard you grip the pistol, how hard you hit the trigger, and of course, heeling, pushing, and twisting. I was skeptical of the errors in these trigger pull charts

View attachment 1153751

but after years of 2700 Bullseye, I have found it is all true. And, I ain't that good of a pistol shot as I cannot control my flinch when shooting a 45 ACP. I am doing well with the 22 lr especially when everything feels "right" during recoil. My Ultra dot sight reveals my trigger pull sins. When the dot zips to one side or the other, it is me pushing or twisting the pistol. There is a characteristic flip when everything is correct, and all other flips show flinches.

Shoot enough rounds in competition, you will see patterns of sight alignment/trigger pull errors. And then you learn, it ain't the load, it ain't the gun, it is me.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't you be better off switching to magnums so you wouldn't have to worry about that flinch?
 
WilsonCQB1911 said:
TLDR: My LCR in 327 is stupid accurate with full house magnums, but displays less than stellar accuracy with 32 S&W Longs. What gives?

I notice that when shooting 32 S&W Longs the accuracy drops off quite a bit. The groups shift left of POA and open up quite a bit such that I generally only shoot out to 15 yards when using Longs. It doesn't seem to matter whether the load is a lead wadcutter or an FMJ. Initially I suspected leading may be the cause but that's not it.
Click to expand...

Accuracy: different ammo = different accuracy. Accuracy is ammo dependent. Some guns don't like some ammo.

Point of impact: it can change significantly with different ammo, and has nothing to do with the shooter.
 
I’m not a great pistol shooter but have seen the 32 long have a consistently lower point of impact than 327 with the same point of aim. A good friend is a much better shot than I am. We put Wolff springs in our new SP101 327 magnums. The hammer spring was an improvement in weight of pull and even the trigger return spring helped. But his point of impact was consistently lower than before till he switched the trigger return spring back to stock. I guess my point is that ammo can make a difference and our shooting skills can be affected by many factors in pulling that trigger.
 
WilsonCQB1911 said:
Wouldn't you be better off switching to magnums so you wouldn't have to worry about that flinch?
Click to expand...

Well how about having a friend hit you from behind with a base ball bat, every time you pull the trigger? I am sure you won't be flinching due to handgun recoil.

There is a very good reason precision shooters look for the lightest recoiling rifle or pistol round. Recoil beats you up. There was a time when the 300 Win Magnum was a viable 1000 yard round. There were a number of National Records set with 300 Win Magnums. The recoil for a prone shooter was horrible. A bud of mine built a match bolt gun around some 30 caliber Norma Magnum, and I was on the firing line the first time he shot it in a Long Range match. I remember seeing him break position with blood streaming down his face, the rear sight was too close to his eye and recoil forced it into the skin above his eye, cutting him. Pain is not conducive to accurate shooting, I will say that.

Everyone in 2700 Bullseye Pistol shoots a better score with their 22 LR than their 45 pistol. It all has to do with recoil.

Several of my smallbore prone shooting buds have purchased electronic shooting aids. I think they are using SCATT Shooter Trainers. The SCATT device shoots firearm movement before, during, and after trigger pull. See the image at one minute, that is the movement of the muzzle as the trigger is being pulled, and after. That trace is all over the place.



One of my Smallbore buds is a National Champion and he says, he had no idea of the movements going on till he saw them on the SCATT. And he had to fix them for consistency sake. I notice there is a SCATT for handgun shooters, and I am sure once laced into the system, you will figure out, you aren't nearly as rock solid as you think.
 
A particular handgun can be fussy about particular kinds of ammo?

There may not be a general rule to find here.
 
I can hold a better group standing one handed with my 1911 than with my model 14 even though the model 14 is probably a more accurate gun.

I think the reason is I’m struggling with follow through, the model 14 has a longer barrel and the 38 special round is moving slower which makes me have to concentrate much harder on my follow through .

if the cartridge is faster as in your magnum, it may be hiding problems with your follow through.
 
Suggestion try some 32 H&R magnum. I shoot the longs,32 mag and 327 mag in my sp101. I have to ''adjust'' on my end. For each. A fun challenge is to load some of each in the cylinder.
 
WilsonCQB1911 said:
My LCR in 327 is insanely accurate out to 25 yards with full house magnum loads. Six explosions go off in my hand and everything ends up in the 10 ring at 25 yards
Click to expand...

No one thought this was incredible? :scrutiny:

Forgive the skepticism, but there are a lot of fantastic internet claims out there and very little backing. What target were you using? The 10-ring on an official 25 yard slow fire target (B-16) is a smidge over 1.5". I don't know your skill level, but if you actually and consistently put "everything" in the B-16 10-ring, you're world class. Maybe the best ever ;). Heck, putting "everything" into most any 10-ring at 25 yards with this gun & ammo would be truly exceptional shooting.
 
MrBorland said:
No one thought this was incredible? :scrutiny:

Forgive the skepticism, but there are a lot of fantastic internet claims out there and very little backing. What target were you using? The 10-ring on an official 25 yard slow fire target (B-16) is a smidge over 1.5". I don't know your skill level, but if you actually and consistently put "everything" in the B-16 10-ring, you're world class. Maybe the best ever ;). Heck, putting "everything" into most any 10-ring at 25 yards with this gun & ammo would be truly exceptional shooting.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliments!
 
MrBorland said:
No one thought this was incredible? :scrutiny:

Forgive the skepticism, but there are a lot of fantastic internet claims out there and very little backing. What target were you using? The 10-ring on an official 25 yard slow fire target (B-16) is a smidge over 1.5". I don't know your skill level, but if you actually and consistently put "everything" in the B-16 10-ring, you're world class. Maybe the best ever ;). Heck, putting "everything" into most any 10-ring at 25 yards with this gun & ammo would be truly exceptional shooting.
Click to expand...

Consistency is hard. And we all tend to cherry pick, deceiving ours selves that our one great result is typical, and ignoring the thousands of not so great results, which are the measure of our skills. Young people particularly are prone to this. They are still getting comfortable in their skins, continually head bumping their contemporaries for dominance. And, few young people are shooting in competition. So their standard of excellence is what they see in the mirror

When you get on the firing line and shoot next to exceptional shooters, the delusion of self greatness pops, unless you are a narcissist. Narcissist don't last long in fair competition because they cannot accept that they are not the greatest that ever was, or ever will be, and they don't have the work ethic to improve.

Like I have said earlier, I thought I was a great pistol shot until I started shooting in Bullseye Competition. The greats are always more consistent, and the scores at the end of the day show the difference. But, I am glad to be there, happy to be able to compete with great guys. It is in fact, great to be awful. You can only improve. When you are very good at something, you can only be happy with perfection, which is impossible to maintain. When I have a train wreck at Bullseye Pistol, my boiler does not burst. The rest of the day may suck, but I get over it.

 
Slamfire said:
And, few young people are shooting in competition.
Click to expand...

Competition certainly helps, and I'm an advocate, but IME, young'uns are mainly disadvantaged because, in the excitement that comes with youth and shooting, it's very difficult to put the fun stuff aside to put in the boring work of basic marksmanship. Young men are particularly prone to this. New female shooters generally tend to do much better.

Slamfire said:
their standard of excellence is what they see in the mirror
Click to expand...

...and on YouTube (and notice how rarely a target is actually shown?)
 
Slamfire said:
Consistency is hard. And we all tend to cherry pick, deceiving ours selves that our one great result is typical, and ignoring the thousands of not so great results, which are the measure of our skills. Young people particularly are prone to this. They are still getting comfortable in their skins, continually head bumping their contemporaries for dominance. And, few young people are shooting in competition. So their standard of excellence is what they see in the mirror

When you get on the firing line and shoot next to exceptional shooters, the delusion of self greatness pops, unless you are a narcissist. Narcissist don't last long in fair competition because they cannot accept that they are not the greatest that ever was, or ever will be, and they don't have the work ethic to improve.

Like I have said earlier, I thought I was a great pistol shot until I started shooting in Bullseye Competition. The greats are always more consistent, and the scores at the end of the day show the difference. But, I am glad to be there, happy to be able to compete with great guys. It is in fact, great to be awful. You can only improve. When you are very good at something, you can only be happy with perfection, which is impossible to maintain. When I have a train wreck at Bullseye Pistol, my boiler does not burst. The rest of the day may suck, but I get over it.

Click to expand...


For sure. And when you get older you tend to think you've got it all figured out and know everything. I'm just speaking in generalities of course. I don't think anyone here has made assumptions about me or spoken like they know me well when they don't. I'm just some kid that is new to shooting and I appreciate all the wisdom.
 
WilsonCQB1911 said:
I'm just some kid that is new to shooting and I appreciate all the wisdom.
Click to expand...

I've posted this many times, but here's my frame of reference for good (but not outstanding) shooting: A consistent and honest 3" at 25 yards. That's a 5-shot unsupported group with a service-sized handgun under no time constraints on an appropriate bullseye-style target. "Consistent" means this is what you're typically able to do on demand (not the once-in-a-lifetime target you hang on your refrigerator), and "honest" means all shots count - no "fliers". Just pick up your handgun, and take your 5 best rounds. Take all the time you need, but everything counts, so make each one count. BTW, those shooting SA/DA guns should be able to do this in SA as well as DA.

If shooting the NRA Bullseye Course of Fire using official targets, I think someone able to consistently shoot 3"@25 would likely score in the High Expert-to-Master range, so shooting the NRA CoF for score is another way of evaluating yourself.

It takes consistent quality practice to be able to consistently shoot 3"@25, but it's do-able. Consistently shooting incrementally smaller than 3"@25 takes logarithmically more practice.
 
Dave DeLaurant said:
If you want to see some honestly lousy groups, check out my Youtube channel -- I can barely see what I'm doing these days, but as long as I'm still having fun I'll keep doing it!

https://www.youtube.com/user/ddelaurant/videos
Click to expand...

Being human is so ordinary. To gain a large internet following, you must learn to lie with conviction!

Put up 15 feet targets and claim you shot them at 50 yards. Better yet, have AI make a video of you doing that, and in the video, repeatably claim just how awesome you are.

You will be an internet God!
 
i am pleased if i can keep the majority within the 9 ring of a b27 at 25 yards with my LCR with 32 H&R magnums. A few straying into the 8 ring are acceptable. aggravating...but acceptable.
By my standards of accuracy and needs, the 32 Long is just as capable for me.

the 327 federal magnum accuracy i have no clue. I don't enjoy it and don't practice with it. It is simply too much power in a 17 oz platform for me.
 
.32 S&W Long has a case length of 0.920". .327 Federal has a case length of 1.20". The bullets fired from .32 S&W Long have a long jump when fired in a .327 chamber before they even hit the throat, much less the forcing cone.

Similarly, .22 Shorts generally don't shoot as well as .22 Long Rifle when fired in a LR chamber.

I suspect that you'd get better accuracy if you handload .32 S&W Long equivalents in .327 brass.
 
Dave Markowitz said:
.32 S&W Long has a case length of 0.920". .327 Federal has a case length of 1.20". The bullets fired from .32 S&W Long have a long jump when fired in a .327 chamber before they even hit the throat, much less the forcing cone.

Similarly, .22 Shorts generally don't shoot as well as .22 Long Rifle when fired in a LR chamber.

I suspect that you'd get better accuracy if you handload .32 S&W Long equivalents in .327 brass.
Click to expand...

Many are concerned about accuracy using a shorter case cartridge. 38 in 357, 44 spl in 44 mag, 32 long in 327, etc., etc.

I've only been shooting about 55 years and don't know everything. However, if shooting a shorter.case in a long chamber causes loss of accuracy then guns like the S&W 17/617, a k frame in 22 lr should be the most inaccurate gun there is. Ruger SA 22s would also be inaccurate along with a lot of other revolvers.

We all know they are not.

To my experience, any loss of accuracy shooting a shorter case cartridge is so small its not to be considered.

Your experience might be different.
 
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