The problem is, it may be hard to tell if the neighbor has been turned into a zombie if he was bitten only recently. Better to be certain and go for the cortex shot rather than risk letting a zombie within biting distance. If it turns out you were wrong, well, chances are you saved your neighbor from a fate worse than death anyway, so feel good about your choice.
Neighbors beating on my door....
- Thread starter Rembrandt
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one45auto
Member
444,
None of the above, my friend. Remember that "the Lord helps those who help themselves." JohnKSa's post on the subject should be required reading, because he eloquently states the very point I was attempting to get across. My grandparents were simple farmers who believed in two principles above all else ~ faith in God and self-reliance. My grandmother continually stressed the importance of those values until they were etched into our subconscious. Unfortunately, a great many people in today's society make no effort whatsoever to prepare for emergencies. They live only for today, squandering thier money on pleasurable pursuits. They operate under the assumption that someone ~ be it the kindness of a stranger or an arm of the Federal government, will step in to take care of them should the worst come to pass. Helping such individuals is morally equivalent to giving an addict drug money, because you're enabling them. You're feeding and encouraging thier dependency, not weaning them from it. I've always liked that scene in "The Maltese Falcon" where Humphrey Bogart says "I won't because all of me wants to, in spite of consequences, and because you counted on that with me the same as you counted on that with all the others."
ilcylic
Member
IF the S has really HTF.
And IF it's time to start rebuilding society from the ground up in small pockets.
And IF this guy has some useful skills, I would consider keeping him alive.
But I'm not giving him a gun. And if he has nothing to offer except another mouth to feed, he's on his own.
-Ogre
And IF it's time to start rebuilding society from the ground up in small pockets.
And IF this guy has some useful skills, I would consider keeping him alive.
But I'm not giving him a gun. And if he has nothing to offer except another mouth to feed, he's on his own.
-Ogre
A good man would invite him in to share the protection of his home.
So I like to think I would do that as I like to think I'm a good man.
But...
The predecation of the scenario states buildings are burning, mass looting, general widespread carnage.
Mr. Anti may look like an arsonist/looter.
If I was a not so good man, maybe the looter gets shot through the door before he can throw what appeared to be a molotov cocktail but was later found to be just a bottle of French wine.
But seriously folks, I'd let them in. Imagine what an ideological ally they would make if they could be turned from the dark side. I've seen it happen.
Antis have friends who are antis. Who better to go forth into the hordes of hoplophobes & bring the light than one who has walked in their steps & knows their illogical minds inside & out? Assuming this isn't an end of the world scenario but rather one caused by local govt, things will eventually go back to normal.
Love,
Josh
So I like to think I would do that as I like to think I'm a good man.
But...
The predecation of the scenario states buildings are burning, mass looting, general widespread carnage.
Mr. Anti may look like an arsonist/looter.
If I was a not so good man, maybe the looter gets shot through the door before he can throw what appeared to be a molotov cocktail but was later found to be just a bottle of French wine.
But seriously folks, I'd let them in. Imagine what an ideological ally they would make if they could be turned from the dark side. I've seen it happen.
Antis have friends who are antis. Who better to go forth into the hordes of hoplophobes & bring the light than one who has walked in their steps & knows their illogical minds inside & out? Assuming this isn't an end of the world scenario but rather one caused by local govt, things will eventually go back to normal.
Love,
Josh
fistful
member
Zombies are not real...but it sure makes the question more fun.
Didn't you just say that some of us were "holier-than-thou"?
I feel so impugned!
all caps mine
Didn't you just say that some of us were "holier-than-thou"?
I feel so impugned!
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No. He can get his own damn guns.. I like mine right where they are; with me. IMHO if he is as anti as i seems. ie. Signs in the yard, actively being the enemy, then let nature take it's course. If he is that indoctrinated already than he's the kind that would turn as soon as the coast was cleared, In the case of a small SHTF, he'd be taking the weapons he saw in the house later in the year. If it were a larger SHTF then your talking rebuilding, you don't need more of a drain on the new society. The exception being (Doctor-Engineer-Builder) My roommates family races trucks so we have all the mechanical expertise we need)
If he's just a sheeple that doesn't know any better (Get all your food anything else you think you need and start loading mags, cooking/cleaning.
No one mentions the option of evacuation. He can get in his SUV and get the heck out of Dodge. When he returns the smoldering remains of his domicile should leave him with a clear understanding of what happens when you voluntarily give up your means of defense. That, and maybe my new neighbor will be easier to deal with.
But lets get real here. Knowing me I'd have him grab all the food and stuff from his house and just make him realize what an unbearable ass he is.
WE could always cuff him later. And if the time came to find more food we could use his SUV to go forage.
If he's just a sheeple that doesn't know any better (Get all your food anything else you think you need and start loading mags, cooking/cleaning.
No one mentions the option of evacuation. He can get in his SUV and get the heck out of Dodge. When he returns the smoldering remains of his domicile should leave him with a clear understanding of what happens when you voluntarily give up your means of defense. That, and maybe my new neighbor will be easier to deal with.
But lets get real here. Knowing me I'd have him grab all the food and stuff from his house and just make him realize what an unbearable ass he is.
WE could always cuff him later. And if the time came to find more food we could use his SUV to go forage.
I wouldn't just give him a gun, but I might invite him(and his family) in.
I guess it really depends on how good of a neighbor he's been. If he's been a bad neighbor, tough luck. If he's been a pretty good neighbor, I'll seriously consider it. There's a lot of effort involved with fortifying a house, and even a pacifist should be able to pound nails.
Of course, all my neighbors right now are military, so in a SHTF situation, we'll all be gone.
My guns will be in the trunk on the base so that looters can't get to them.
I guess it really depends on how good of a neighbor he's been. If he's been a bad neighbor, tough luck. If he's been a pretty good neighbor, I'll seriously consider it. There's a lot of effort involved with fortifying a house, and even a pacifist should be able to pound nails.
Of course, all my neighbors right now are military, so in a SHTF situation, we'll all be gone.
My guns will be in the trunk on the base so that looters can't get to them.
The_Antibubba
Member
Sometimes the High Road is not open to through traffic
1. Is this the LA riots, or TEOTWAKI?
2. Is he an ignorant "sheeple", or truly a lefty nutbag?
3. Does he bring anything to the table in the way of skill/valuables?
If it's a riot situation, I'd tell him to get in his car and get out of there, and that I'd try to prevent his house from being torched, if I could.
If he's never thought much about guns, and is sudden having a "revelation", I might give him shelter, especially if he has family (and yes, non-THR as it might be, the "Does he have a cute daughter?" does cross my mind
)
If it is a TEOTWAKI, or a serious long-term breakdown of order, and this guy is truly anti-gun (and, it is logical to suppose, anti-freedoms), then i have a difficult decision to make. Because, chances are, he has no supplies of his own, and never even considered stocking up-after all, FEMA would take care of things, right?
Maybe he is a doctor or dentist, and my long-term survival would increase with having him around. He doesn't get a gun, but by virtue of his skills, he gets a last chance to unwedge his head.
But what to do if he's truly useless? No way will I endanger me and mine on someone who has only made it this far because he has lived in a rich, benevolent society. I would have to turn him away, right?
Except maybe I can't afford to. He has nowhere to go or turn, and he probably thinks he can negotiate with the looters and the rapists. And now he has the knowledge and the grudge to tell them, in exchange for his life, where they can find a large supply of guns and food.
We are always talking about WTSHTF, but to protect your loved ones and get them through a breakdown in society, and maybe to begin a better, free society on the other side, can you kill this guy? Are you willing to take this life to preserve the lives of others? He's not shooting at you, and he's not threatening you, and maybe he'd just go home and curl up in the fetal position.
But can you chance it?
I hope I'm never faced with this situation, but if I am, I hope he dies quickly, without suffering.
1. Is this the LA riots, or TEOTWAKI?
2. Is he an ignorant "sheeple", or truly a lefty nutbag?
3. Does he bring anything to the table in the way of skill/valuables?
If it's a riot situation, I'd tell him to get in his car and get out of there, and that I'd try to prevent his house from being torched, if I could.
If he's never thought much about guns, and is sudden having a "revelation", I might give him shelter, especially if he has family (and yes, non-THR as it might be, the "Does he have a cute daughter?" does cross my mind
)If it is a TEOTWAKI, or a serious long-term breakdown of order, and this guy is truly anti-gun (and, it is logical to suppose, anti-freedoms), then i have a difficult decision to make. Because, chances are, he has no supplies of his own, and never even considered stocking up-after all, FEMA would take care of things, right?
Maybe he is a doctor or dentist, and my long-term survival would increase with having him around. He doesn't get a gun, but by virtue of his skills, he gets a last chance to unwedge his head.
But what to do if he's truly useless? No way will I endanger me and mine on someone who has only made it this far because he has lived in a rich, benevolent society. I would have to turn him away, right?
Except maybe I can't afford to. He has nowhere to go or turn, and he probably thinks he can negotiate with the looters and the rapists. And now he has the knowledge and the grudge to tell them, in exchange for his life, where they can find a large supply of guns and food.
We are always talking about WTSHTF, but to protect your loved ones and get them through a breakdown in society, and maybe to begin a better, free society on the other side, can you kill this guy? Are you willing to take this life to preserve the lives of others? He's not shooting at you, and he's not threatening you, and maybe he'd just go home and curl up in the fetal position.
But can you chance it?
I hope I'm never faced with this situation, but if I am, I hope he dies quickly, without suffering.
No offense, but pre emptively shooting some guy on the mere guess that in some situations he might tell others about you is murder. That puts you down by the rioters in my book.
I'm among those who would leave a man out if I felt him to be a danger to my family, or simply a weak link, but to go actively kill him before you have any basis for it - acting on nothing more than your own fear - is wrong, period. If the S really HTF, the fact that you have food and guns will quickly become clear to the looters. They aren't going to need a roadmap, yours will be the house with the bodies of previous looters outside. Killing this guy won't help you.
patent
Once again, I guess it depends on your particular SHTF. If we are talking about the aftermath of a hurricane or during a riot, it may very well be worth your while to help the guy. You could convert him and end up with a valuable ally for the next time. I would be tempted to tell him to use his protest signs to defend himself or write a letter to his senator, but I actually probably wouldn't do that. I would probably help him, eventhough he didn't deserve it. I have helped other people that I should have just allowed to "stew in their own cookin" before, and I probably would again. I wouldn't just give anyone a gun though. Too much liability involved after order gets restored.
If we are talking about the fall of the Roman Empire, I would probably help as much as I could to get him to some level of self-sufficiency, but he would essentially be on his own after that. I still wouldn't give him a gun because I would most likely need that gun at some point. I would imagine that in the event of TEOTWAWKI, there would be a few guns around that he could liberate for himself. One thing I could not do is take on him and his family to provide for. I am a single male, and I would be hard pressed to survive such a situation myself. There is simply no way that I could support a large group of other people as well.
The only situation where I would consider arming and training someone is if the US were at war on our own soil, of if some kind of dictator had come to power and he was in need of removal. In that case, an extra mauser in someone's hands does more good than having it stashed in my closet.
If we are talking about the fall of the Roman Empire, I would probably help as much as I could to get him to some level of self-sufficiency, but he would essentially be on his own after that. I still wouldn't give him a gun because I would most likely need that gun at some point. I would imagine that in the event of TEOTWAWKI, there would be a few guns around that he could liberate for himself. One thing I could not do is take on him and his family to provide for. I am a single male, and I would be hard pressed to survive such a situation myself. There is simply no way that I could support a large group of other people as well.
The only situation where I would consider arming and training someone is if the US were at war on our own soil, of if some kind of dictator had come to power and he was in need of removal. In that case, an extra mauser in someone's hands does more good than having it stashed in my closet.
Edward429451
member
I chewed on this some more and came to the same conclusion. I'd help them unless they made it known that they were not trustworthy or had bad intent. I wouldn't trust him too soon though.
Sure there'd be a certain amount of risk involved. I don't see it as terribly different than 444 kicking in someones door and carrying them to safety from the fire. Risk that his family would lose him, they shoot him, or they are greatful and live. Would you go in a burning house to save someone who has anti signs in the yard? I think you would out of a sense of duty to your fellow man and training.
Scripture says the two greatest commandments are to love God will all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Would you want your neighbor to let you in if the shoes were reversed? Of course. So ou should let them in...all things considered.
Or so it seems to me.
Sure there'd be a certain amount of risk involved. I don't see it as terribly different than 444 kicking in someones door and carrying them to safety from the fire. Risk that his family would lose him, they shoot him, or they are greatful and live. Would you go in a burning house to save someone who has anti signs in the yard? I think you would out of a sense of duty to your fellow man and training.
Scripture says the two greatest commandments are to love God will all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Would you want your neighbor to let you in if the shoes were reversed? Of course. So ou should let them in...all things considered.
Or so it seems to me.
Of the five neighbors sharing a fence with me, I know that four have guns and know how to use them. Real salt of the earth people, too. The type I ask to watch our house and take care of the cat when we're out of town.
There's one family that we don't know as well, and I don't know if they have guns. They're friendly enough, but tend to keep to themselves.
What it boils down to is how well I know/trust my neighbor. I don't intend to lend firearms, unless I know the neighbor is familiar with guns and responsible already. Whether I let the neighbors into my home depends on how well I know them.
In my case, if there were riots in town, my neighborhood could organized into an armed militia in less than an hour, with established leadership already in place. Mostly bolt action and lever action dear rifles, but there are a few AK's and AR's mixed in. Most neighbors have food storage too, so we'd be able to hold out easily for weeks until order is reestablished.
There's one family that we don't know as well, and I don't know if they have guns. They're friendly enough, but tend to keep to themselves.
What it boils down to is how well I know/trust my neighbor. I don't intend to lend firearms, unless I know the neighbor is familiar with guns and responsible already. Whether I let the neighbors into my home depends on how well I know them.
In my case, if there were riots in town, my neighborhood could organized into an armed militia in less than an hour, with established leadership already in place. Mostly bolt action and lever action dear rifles, but there are a few AK's and AR's mixed in. Most neighbors have food storage too, so we'd be able to hold out easily for weeks until order is reestablished.
Edward429451
member
This is a thought provoking issue and I've been thinking and reading about this in an effort to come to some kind of conclusion about this for myself because you guys who say slam the door in their face actually made a pretty darn good case for it. Checking yourself against others opinions is a good thing to do sometimes. It turns out my instincts were with me.
I have to disagree with this. I believe its taken out of context or at least shouldn't be used across the board. It's talking about a specific event more than everyday living. The Thessalonians reference also, If you read 2 Thessalonians 3:10 "For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither will he eat." does sound like hey, they shoulda prepared and taken steps. But this is out of context. If you read the previous chapter and the next chapter also, you see that paul was talking to those who were expecting Christ to come very soon. They quit their jobs and awaited his coming. They were completely capable of working but chose not to. This isn't relevant to the scenario we're discussing. A couple scriptures that I think are relevant are:
Matthew 5:43-48 " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 "And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
James 2:15-17 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Love must be the motivating factor. Just as God out of love bestows riches upon some and out of love brings poverty upon some, we must also use discernment. If we come across a person who is need of help and we are capable of helping them we must help them. Every case is not completely cut and dry and discernment must be used. A person has responsibility first to their family, then to their church family, and then to those outside of the church. Yes they're going to eat some of your family's food. So what. You just have to have a little faith in God that he wont let you starve. He wont.
Or so it seems to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Gives me an idea for a new thread. Look for the Cops beating on your door thread!!
I have to disagree with this. I believe its taken out of context or at least shouldn't be used across the board. It's talking about a specific event more than everyday living. The Thessalonians reference also, If you read 2 Thessalonians 3:10 "For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither will he eat." does sound like hey, they shoulda prepared and taken steps. But this is out of context. If you read the previous chapter and the next chapter also, you see that paul was talking to those who were expecting Christ to come very soon. They quit their jobs and awaited his coming. They were completely capable of working but chose not to. This isn't relevant to the scenario we're discussing. A couple scriptures that I think are relevant are:
Matthew 5:43-48 " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 "And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
James 2:15-17 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Love must be the motivating factor. Just as God out of love bestows riches upon some and out of love brings poverty upon some, we must also use discernment. If we come across a person who is need of help and we are capable of helping them we must help them. Every case is not completely cut and dry and discernment must be used. A person has responsibility first to their family, then to their church family, and then to those outside of the church. Yes they're going to eat some of your family's food. So what. You just have to have a little faith in God that he wont let you starve. He wont.
Or so it seems to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Gives me an idea for a new thread. Look for the Cops beating on your door thread!!
CannibalCrowley
Member
That method worked well for the Donner party.
Edward429451
member
I know I should probably know this but who's the Donner party?
Intune
Member
Hostess: Donner party of 25? Um, 24, 21, 19...? Sorry, an oldie and still bad.
Ed, wait 'till after lunch, I'll tell you then.
Ed, wait 'till after lunch, I'll tell you then.
Edward429451
member
Oh, some stranded people who had to resort to cannibalism? Plane crash or something?
Intune
Member
The Donner party is the name given to a group of emigrants, including the families of George Donner and his brother Jacob, who became trapped in the Sierra Nevada mountains during the winter of 1846-47. Nearly half of the party died, and some resorted to eating their dead in an effort to survive. Many people of the time thought the party lollygagged up in the mountains for too long, not realizing the dangers, instead of pushing through. In total, of the 87 men, women and children in the Donner party, 46 survived, 41 died. Sad story.
Given that these folks beating on the door were perfectly capable of preparing and chose not to, it sounds virtually identical to me...
I've helped people out of situations that they clearly put themselves into--not talking about misfortune--pure and simple lack of preparation. I'll probably do it again.
I've also helped people who have tried hard and still ended up in trouble. I'll do that again for certain.
The difference is that I see the latter as an obligation--the former as a choice.
firearms_instructor
Member
Ideally, if I know my neighbor is an anti, he won't even know I have guns. "Guns?! What guns? Isn't it up the police to protect us?"
Not about to give out any guns to any antis, nor to anyone else without proper training.
A lot would depend on what kind of person my neighbor really was, and what kind of relationship I have had with them.
Major points get deducted for spouting or following the commie party line.
My wife and I come first. Not interested in compromising our security.
Not about to give out any guns to any antis, nor to anyone else without proper training.
A lot would depend on what kind of person my neighbor really was, and what kind of relationship I have had with them.
Major points get deducted for spouting or following the commie party line.
My wife and I come first. Not interested in compromising our security.
Yooper
Member
I would not trust someone who thinks he can deter a determined armed antagonist with rhetoric to cover my back. This makes him a liability and detracts from my ability to look out for my own family which is my first obligation. I would tell him to go home and hide behind the signs in his yard, he's already made his choice.
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