State Rep. Shays is going after batf to find out why rds are not baned! Go to www.connpost.com click on local and its about 1/2 way down. fn owners should follow this story! 
5.7X28 update
- Thread starter jerryd
- Start date
- Status
GigaBuist
Member
http://www.connpost.com/Stories/0,1413,96%7E3750%7E2650807,00.html
Funny me, I figured criminals willing to shoot a police officer were the danger to officers and the public, not ammo!
Funny me, I figured criminals willing to shoot a police officer were the danger to officers and the public, not ammo!
M1911Owner
Member
How many cops have been killed using this round?
mbs357
Member
CZ-52s for $100?
Sweet, I'd love for my first pistol to be a CZ, fan of them in general...just need someone to buy it for me.
5.7x28mm...of course we don't NEED an armor peircing round, but they can be fun!
I'd be more worried about a creep on mainstreet with a crowbar than I would be about a responsible neighbor with a tactical nuke.
I get so sick of people banning and blaming objects on problems[sarcasm]...what we need to do is kill idiots off.
Commit a crime -- DEATH PENALTY.
That'll make people think twice.......maybe more![/sarcasm]
Sweet, I'd love for my first pistol to be a CZ, fan of them in general...just need someone to buy it for me.
5.7x28mm...of course we don't NEED an armor peircing round, but they can be fun!
I'd be more worried about a creep on mainstreet with a crowbar than I would be about a responsible neighbor with a tactical nuke.
I get so sick of people banning and blaming objects on problems[sarcasm]...what we need to do is kill idiots off.
Commit a crime -- DEATH PENALTY.
That'll make people think twice.......maybe more![/sarcasm]
beerslurpy
member
First, this is old news. AR15.com did a test on this like a year ago.
Two, cops are killed all the time by low quality vests that fall apart when hit by 9mm rounds. Often there is weak stitching or the laminate itself is of low quality. You dont hear about it for the same reason you didnt hear about cops getting vests back in the 70s and you dont hear about rifle rounds defeating even heavy armor if it doesnt have a steel insert. The cops dont want people or cops to know that they are being protected by the lowest bidder.
Three, this is just the next 50 cal/assault weapon/saturday night special ban. And it will fail for the exact same reason the AW ban failed.
The reason it isnt banned under the stupid "cop killer bullet" ban is because the ban attempted to outlaw something that cant even be defined. Depending on the quality of the vest, the velocity and design of the bullet and even the range and location of the shooting, any bullet could or could not penetrate a bullet proof vest. As long as cops exist and people have a reason to shoot at them, you will have shootings, gun laws or not.
Two, cops are killed all the time by low quality vests that fall apart when hit by 9mm rounds. Often there is weak stitching or the laminate itself is of low quality. You dont hear about it for the same reason you didnt hear about cops getting vests back in the 70s and you dont hear about rifle rounds defeating even heavy armor if it doesnt have a steel insert. The cops dont want people or cops to know that they are being protected by the lowest bidder.
Three, this is just the next 50 cal/assault weapon/saturday night special ban. And it will fail for the exact same reason the AW ban failed.
The reason it isnt banned under the stupid "cop killer bullet" ban is because the ban attempted to outlaw something that cant even be defined. Depending on the quality of the vest, the velocity and design of the bullet and even the range and location of the shooting, any bullet could or could not penetrate a bullet proof vest. As long as cops exist and people have a reason to shoot at them, you will have shootings, gun laws or not.
beerslurpy
member
Who is going to ban it? Certainly not my representative and certainly not Mel Martinez. Certainly not any of the other pro-gun individuals we elected to Congress the past 10 years. If anything, I was hoping we might get the stupid cop killer bullet and plastic handgun laws off the books this year.
RavenVT100
Member
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2004
- Messages
- 1,107
The NBC news channel in NYC just did a "special" on it last night. They touted it as a "new" handgun that is specifically designed to "kill cops." It was clear that not a single member of their staff even bothered to do five minutes of cursory research on the gun. Then they made some tasteless comment in their writeup about how all FN designed it for was to get rich and profit from dead police officers.
beerslurpy
member
Dude, when NYC and CA can pass federal gun laws, I will take up arms against them. In the meantime, I think we should just focus on keeping our reps focused on the bills we want passed this year.
beerslurpy said;
Got any documentation for this statement? The only body armor failures I'm aware of involve laminate armor with zylon in it. There have been two instances, one of which resulted in a fatality. In my nearly 20 years in law enforcement there have been under 200 officers killed in the line of duty each year. The average is around 140 or so. Many of these killings don't involve firearms so the examples ought to be easy to come up with. How come the first I hear about about officers being killed by low quality vests that fall apart when hit by 9mm rounds is in the legal and political forum of a general firearms website and not from any official channel or professional publication?
Jeff
Got any documentation for this statement? The only body armor failures I'm aware of involve laminate armor with zylon in it. There have been two instances, one of which resulted in a fatality. In my nearly 20 years in law enforcement there have been under 200 officers killed in the line of duty each year. The average is around 140 or so. Many of these killings don't involve firearms so the examples ought to be easy to come up with. How come the first I hear about about officers being killed by low quality vests that fall apart when hit by 9mm rounds is in the legal and political forum of a general firearms website and not from any official channel or professional publication?
Jeff
Just how stupid are some people ??
If they had bothered to read the entire piece of literature they would have discovered there is more than one kind of 5.7x28 ammunition. It comes in armor piercing, hollow point, tracer and sub-sonic.
Only the armor piercing ammo is the SS190 and it is restricted from civilian sales or possession. This is the ammo that FN says will penetrate 49 layers of Kevlar.
The only ammo available commercially is the SS192 hollow point. It is not armor piercing or different from any other regular bullet.
See for yourself: 5.7x28mm ammunition.
Guy used the ss192 on a second chance zylon IIA vest over at ar15
All rounds went thru
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=10865
Well guys we took a prestine condition, Second chance Ultama vest,( Level two) out today and tested the civilian SS192 Hollow Points in it from 7 yards and 15yards.......every shot penetrated the vest completely, and two thick phone books we had the vest panel taped to.(all made it through the first book,70% made it through the second) we shot the vest 35 times all toll with hits separated so they wouldnt go thought the same place......went thought it like an ice pick goes though styrofoam. The .45 acp control shot penetrated zero layers, the .357 158JHP did 5 layers.So this panel will stop what its rated to stop. I am quite impressed as this isnt supposed to do this.In later testing(page 6 of this post) we shot the same vest panel with 7.62x25 from a CZ52(penetrated),.44 Magnum from a S&W M29 4"(stopped it) and .45 Winchester Mag from a LAR Grizzly(stopped it)So this panels ability to stop what it was designed to stop is above reproach even though its made of zylon instead of kevlar. It was never subject to the heat /humidity issues that causes zylon to deteriorate.
Like I said SS192 is no different than many other regular bullets. No more no less.
There are a lot of regular rounds that could be fired out of a Thompson Contender, Remington XP100, AR15 pistol etc.. that would do the same thing or more than SS192 did to that vest.
Even 7.62x25 handgun ammo penetrated the vest.
There is nothing about SS192 that makes it more dangerous than many other commercially available rounds.
The fact that Rep. Shays and Chief Kiely are using the bullet info for the SS190, that is not available to the public, shows either ignorance or deceit.
Well another problem is advertising
This is from fns web site
http://www.fnmfg.com/products/fivesevn/fivesevn.htm
The Five seveN Pistol is the companion weapon to the P90 sub-machine gun. The Five seveN is an easily concealable double action pistol with a larger, 20-round magazine capacity. A maximum use has been made of composite materials in the frame and slide to result in an extremely light weight, 1.7 pound, design. The 5.7x28mm ammunition has the capability of penetrating body armor at extended ranges. This new ammunition features a lead-free projectile to eliminate environmental concerns. NATO STANAG classification for the ammunition is currently underway.
See the problem? Civilians can buy this gun.(i want one ) Fn markets for its vest penetrating capabilitys. Do you think Joe Scardyguns is going to know the difference? This is going to make cop killer bullets seem like a daisy bb rifle.
I really wish the guy at AR15.com didnt do his "test" And yes i believe this will chain link to the bushmaster carbon 15 too
This is from fns web site
http://www.fnmfg.com/products/fivesevn/fivesevn.htm
The Five seveN Pistol is the companion weapon to the P90 sub-machine gun. The Five seveN is an easily concealable double action pistol with a larger, 20-round magazine capacity. A maximum use has been made of composite materials in the frame and slide to result in an extremely light weight, 1.7 pound, design. The 5.7x28mm ammunition has the capability of penetrating body armor at extended ranges. This new ammunition features a lead-free projectile to eliminate environmental concerns. NATO STANAG classification for the ammunition is currently underway.
See the problem? Civilians can buy this gun.(i want one ) Fn markets for its vest penetrating capabilitys. Do you think Joe Scardyguns is going to know the difference? This is going to make cop killer bullets seem like a daisy bb rifle.
I really wish the guy at AR15.com didnt do his "test" And yes i believe this will chain link to the bushmaster carbon 15 too
HankB
Member
Back in 1994, NBC's Tom Brokaw did a "report" (and I use the term loosely) on the pending AWB. BUT they showed video of a real machinegun being fired. In respose to criticism, NBC sent out a form letter agreeing they were technically in error, but it wasn't a deliberate intent to deceive, and they didn't offer a retraction or correction.
A couple of weeks later, with new footage, they showed ANOTHER machinegun being fired as Brokaw did the voice-over.
Things apparently haven't changed any at NBC with Brokaw's departure.
liars.Drizzt
Member
Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun
UPDATED:
NEW YORK -- There is a nationwide alert to members of law enforcement regarding a new kind of handgun which can render a bulletproof vest useless, as first reported by NewsChannel 4's Scott Weinberger.
The most shocking fact may be that the gun -- known as the "five-seven" -- is being marketed to the public, and it's completely legal
It was a very difficult decision for members of law enforcement to go public about the new weapon, but officers fear that once word of the weapon begins to circulate in the wrong circles, they will be in great danger. They agreed to speak to NewsChannel 4, hoping the public will understand what they call the most devastating weapon they face.
The weapon is light, easily concealable and can fire 20 rounds in seconds without reloading.
"This would be devastating," said Chief Robert Troy, of the Jersey City Police Department.
Troy said he learned about the high-powered pistol from a bulletin issued by Florida Department of Law Enforcement to all of its agents. Troy believes faced with this new weapon, his officers would be at a total disadvantage.
"Dealing with a gun like this -- it's a whole new ballgame," Troy said.
Troy is not the only member of law enforcement to voice concern. As NewsChannel 4 began to contact several more departments in the Tri-State Area, it turned out that officers in Trumball, Conn., had seized one of these handguns during a recent arrest.
"Certainly, handguns are a danger to any police officer on any day, but one that specifically advertised by the company to be capable of defeating a ballistic vest is certainly the utmost concern to us," said Glenn Byrnes, of the Trumball Police Department.
The five-seven is made by FN Herstal, a Belgian company. On its Web site, the company boasts the five-seven's ability to penetrate more than 48 layers of Kevlar -- the material bulletproof vests are made of -- if you use a five-seven, 28-mm armor-piercing bullet.
However, the company said that bullet is not sold to the public. Instead, gun buyers can purchase what the company calls a training or civilian bullet -- the type loaded into the gun confiscated by Trumball police.
At a distance of 21 feet, Trumball police Sgt. Lenny Scinto fired the five-seven with the ammo sold legally to the public into a standard police vest. All three penetrated the vest.
The bullets even went through the back panel of the vest, penetrating both layers.
In a similar test, an officer fired a .45-caliber round into the same vest. While the shot clearly knocked it down, it didn't penetrate the vest, and an officer would likely have survived the assault.
"The velocity of this round makes it a more penetrating round -- that's what had me concerned," Scinto said.
FN Herstal told NewsChannel 4 that they dispute the test, stating, "Most law enforcement agencies don't have the ability to properly test a ballistic vest."
When NewsChannel 4 asked how this could have happened, the spokesperson said: "We [the company] are not experts in ballistic armor."
Back in Trumball, Scinto said his officers would have to rethink how to protect the public and protect themselves.
"This is going to add a whole new dimension to training and tactics. With the penetration of these rounds, you're going to have to find something considerably heavier than we normally use for cover and concealment to stop this round," Scinto said.
In Jersey City, Troy said he will appeal to lawmakers, hoping they will step in before any of his officers are confronted with the five-seven.
"This does not belong in the civilian population. The only thing that comes out of this is profits for the company and dead police officers," Troy said. "I would like the federal government to ban these rounds to the civilian public
http://www.wnbc.com/news/4075959/detail.html
UPDATED:
NEW YORK -- There is a nationwide alert to members of law enforcement regarding a new kind of handgun which can render a bulletproof vest useless, as first reported by NewsChannel 4's Scott Weinberger.
The most shocking fact may be that the gun -- known as the "five-seven" -- is being marketed to the public, and it's completely legal
It was a very difficult decision for members of law enforcement to go public about the new weapon, but officers fear that once word of the weapon begins to circulate in the wrong circles, they will be in great danger. They agreed to speak to NewsChannel 4, hoping the public will understand what they call the most devastating weapon they face.
The weapon is light, easily concealable and can fire 20 rounds in seconds without reloading.
"This would be devastating," said Chief Robert Troy, of the Jersey City Police Department.
Troy said he learned about the high-powered pistol from a bulletin issued by Florida Department of Law Enforcement to all of its agents. Troy believes faced with this new weapon, his officers would be at a total disadvantage.
"Dealing with a gun like this -- it's a whole new ballgame," Troy said.
Troy is not the only member of law enforcement to voice concern. As NewsChannel 4 began to contact several more departments in the Tri-State Area, it turned out that officers in Trumball, Conn., had seized one of these handguns during a recent arrest.
"Certainly, handguns are a danger to any police officer on any day, but one that specifically advertised by the company to be capable of defeating a ballistic vest is certainly the utmost concern to us," said Glenn Byrnes, of the Trumball Police Department.
The five-seven is made by FN Herstal, a Belgian company. On its Web site, the company boasts the five-seven's ability to penetrate more than 48 layers of Kevlar -- the material bulletproof vests are made of -- if you use a five-seven, 28-mm armor-piercing bullet.
However, the company said that bullet is not sold to the public. Instead, gun buyers can purchase what the company calls a training or civilian bullet -- the type loaded into the gun confiscated by Trumball police.
At a distance of 21 feet, Trumball police Sgt. Lenny Scinto fired the five-seven with the ammo sold legally to the public into a standard police vest. All three penetrated the vest.
The bullets even went through the back panel of the vest, penetrating both layers.
In a similar test, an officer fired a .45-caliber round into the same vest. While the shot clearly knocked it down, it didn't penetrate the vest, and an officer would likely have survived the assault.
"The velocity of this round makes it a more penetrating round -- that's what had me concerned," Scinto said.
FN Herstal told NewsChannel 4 that they dispute the test, stating, "Most law enforcement agencies don't have the ability to properly test a ballistic vest."
When NewsChannel 4 asked how this could have happened, the spokesperson said: "We [the company] are not experts in ballistic armor."
Back in Trumball, Scinto said his officers would have to rethink how to protect the public and protect themselves.
"This is going to add a whole new dimension to training and tactics. With the penetration of these rounds, you're going to have to find something considerably heavier than we normally use for cover and concealment to stop this round," Scinto said.
In Jersey City, Troy said he will appeal to lawmakers, hoping they will step in before any of his officers are confronted with the five-seven.
"This does not belong in the civilian population. The only thing that comes out of this is profits for the company and dead police officers," Troy said. "I would like the federal government to ban these rounds to the civilian public
http://www.wnbc.com/news/4075959/detail.html
madkiwi
Member
Anyone but me find it ironic that FN doesn't want their distributors to sell these to civilians, they say on their website it is only for sale to military and law-enforcement, but it ships with 3 ten round magazines instead of the 20 rounders?
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
So I can't have a .50 BMG because the bullet it fires is too big. Nor do they want me to have a 5.7mm because the round it fires is too small. Unfortunately, when it comes to antis, they will never be able to agree on a form of ammunition that's "just right" unless it's the sort prohibited from the public.
Warbow
Member
Ug. I hate the media. They make it sound like the pistol just came out a week ago and that chaos will ensue because of it. Good job not mentioning that it's been around for over a decade and no one has been killing cops with them. 
mons meg
Member
Where's this headline:
In other news, police are not as concerned about the 10000 other types of guns that can also kill them.
I've posted this in other threads....what happenes when Remington, Federal, and Winchester start offering 5.7x28 "ball" ammo with plain old lead cores and copper jackets? I mean. it's not much different than a .22 Hornet or similar.
5.7x28 boattail "varmint" round....you know, for your little varmint carbine.
In other news, police are not as concerned about the 10000 other types of guns that can also kill them.
I've posted this in other threads....what happenes when Remington, Federal, and Winchester start offering 5.7x28 "ball" ammo with plain old lead cores and copper jackets? I mean. it's not much different than a .22 Hornet or similar.
5.7x28 boattail "varmint" round....you know, for your little varmint carbine.
Aguila Blanca
Member
What I'd like to know is, what the heck was a local police department doing conducting ANY kind of "tests" on a firearm they obtained from a DUI stop, not a criminal case. My guess would be that ownership might be in dispute, and the guy from whom it was taken was/is probably in the process of trying to get it back, so IMHO the Trumbull, CT, police department had no business playing with someone else's property.
Shays should take a hike.
On another note, I am not an LEO or an authority on body armor, but I note the AR15 test specified that the vest they shot up was a Level 2. I thought the current state of the art was Level 3. Did I dream this up, or is that test out of date?
Shays should take a hike.
On another note, I am not an LEO or an authority on body armor, but I note the AR15 test specified that the vest they shot up was a Level 2. I thought the current state of the art was Level 3. Did I dream this up, or is that test out of date?
- Status
