Well i'm sorry all

No, One question. Define, precisely, "Troll" for my benefit as I don't seem to catch the meaning.

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Here you go, 280 Plus.

Taken from Wikipedia

An internet troll is a person who sends duplicitous messages to get angry responses, or a message sent by such a person. The term derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" and ultimately from trolling for fish. It's use to refer to unwanted internet posts originates on usenet. The term is frequently abused to slander opponents in heated debates and is frequently misapplied to those who are ignorant of etiquette.

Trolling is often described as an online version of the breaching experiment, where social boundaries and rules of etiquette are broken. Self-proclaimed trolls often style themselves as Devil's Advocates or gadflies or culture jammers, challenging the dominant discourse and assumptions of the forum they are trolling in an attempt to subvert and introduce different ways of thinking. Detractors who value etiquette claim that true Devil's Advocates generally identify themselves as such for the sake of etiquette, whereas trolls often consider etiquette to be something worth trolling in order to fight groupthink.

Trolls are sometimes caricatured as socially inept. This is often due to the fundamental attribution error, as it is impossible to know the real traits of an individual solely from their online discourse. Indeed, since intentional trolls are alleged to knowingly flout social boundaries, it is difficult to typecast them as socially inept since they have arguably proven adept at their goal.

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teach your children well...

I never had any misconceptions of his age from the get go.

Only in a 15 year old's world are life situations so black and white. He regurgitates what he has been taught and then comes here looking for validation. Didn't work out so well.

Age and experience may change his opinions. Or not.

The rest of us in the "free" world would do well to teach our children reality rather than fantasy.

Ok, you can visit the board as often as you like since its on the www and that does not make it specific to just one country, race, etc...which is wonderful I believe.

I have not read all of your posts and really don't care to. I won't call you a troll either.

Your intro says you live in Australia, the best country in the world. If thats the case, why do you even give a crap about our gun laws? We are not over there trying to change the people of your country, or their thinking. In America, we allow everyone to have their own opinion and make their own decisions. As such, there is no need for you to post comments and try to get us to convince you to approve of our laws and rights. If you want to learn about people, sit back, relax and and enjoy the flight. If you want honest comments, ask questions, but when you get a response you dont like or one you disagree with, move on.

In other words, if you dont like our opinions, dont come here. We are not on this forum to entertain your brain. We are common people with a thirst for American Freedom that we are entitled to have by the U.S. Constitution. There is nothing wrong with what we do. Maybe there are a few bad apples in the bunch, but hey, that goes with everything in life.

Furthermore, your comment of calling us gun stroking rednecks is uncalled for. If you read the terms of use of this forum, you would see that we do not allow personal attacks here. We take The High Road. If you can't handle that, please don't come back.

vindi C.

A bit more research might be in order before you post here.

You want to get to know us better? Make sure that our IQ's are greater than room temperature?

Fine. I'am an emergency registered nurse. I have two baccalaureate degrees.
I own over fifty firearms....I haven't done a count lately. Contrary to the people who want to believe that all gun owners are trailer trash...my firearms collection along with extensive accessories and reloading equipment have more value than many people's houses-much less their mobile homes.

I'm also a member of a group who has defended myself from death or extensive brain damage with the use of a concealed handgun. Further, one of my grandfathers died from the complications of a gunshot wound. My uncle was murdered with a handgun. My oldest friend took a knife to a gunfight...didn't work too well. Two friends of mine who were machine gun dealers were shot to death in their store in 1994. A cousin was tied to a concrete block with his bootlaces and thrown in a pond after being repeatedly sodomized by a couple of hitchhikers (want to argue if he wished he had a firearm?). So, friend, I've seen both sides of the equation-up close and personal. Therefore I am cognizant of your loss. But please don't think it gives you some type of specialness. It doesn't...not by a long chalk.

People who claim that I should be disarmed are people who believe I should have been beaten to death by my assailant armed with a hickory sledge hammer handle. If you wish to make that claim...defend it.

Troll or Not-Troll, name-calling of whatever sort is not High Road. There's no excuse for rudeness and discourtesy, regardless of somebody else's behavior. There are many other ways to express scorn and derision of somebody's IDEAS.

, Art

"Just because ya gotta kill a guy is no reason to be rude to him."

Vindi,

I would glady engage in intelligent discourse with you, were it not for the nagging sensation that I would be trying to change the opinions of a brick wall.

As for intelligent, I'm a computer systems analyst with a degree in computer science, who's been with firearms all his life, and am currently taking a job in a gun shop/ firing range *just for fun*.

or do you want me to think you're all a pack of fools who know nothing about the rights of others.

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Your rights in Austrailia are yours, ours in America are ours, fought hard for and won with the blood and sacrifice of millions. If you cannot stand our rights, you do not need to visit. Whatever you wish to think is whatever you wish to think. I believe you are a foolishly opinionated young person, who will have a horrible shock of running into a brick wall called "real life", soon.
In the meantime, if we bother you so much, go on walkabout.

2 men with weapons?

One man you mean- officially Martin Bryant acted alone in Port Arthur.

As always are alternative explanations-
http://www.iansa.org/campaigns_events/port_arthur_memorial.htm
http://www.davidicke.net/tellthetruth/conspiracy/parthur1.html
http://vialls.homestead.com/portarthur.html
http://www.reclaimaustralia.net/TIMBIP/deceit_and_terrorism.htm
CT

VC,

I've read all three threads I've seen you participate in, and unfortunately the best thing I can think of to say at this point is that you are welcome to your opinion re. the utility of firearms in personal defense. I hope you will be so generous as to allow me my opinion as well, which happens to be the complete opposite of yours.

And I hope the occasion never arises in either of our lives which proves you wrong- or me right.

Good day sir,

lpl/nc

Among the dead was a 4 year old girl, my sister who would be older than me now.

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If your claim above is true, I can understand that you dislike murderers (as do we all). I can also understand your search for a less-lethal method of protection that is as effective as firearms.

Perhaps studying physics, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering and ballistics, combined with your prowess as a competitive shooter (as referenced in your PM to me) and your personal passion for this subject will help you develop such a defensive weapon and become a rich, famous man. You will have solved a problem that has plagued law-enforcement experts and defense contactors for centuries. I'll keep an eye out for Vendi Industries - maybe you can allow some of us to invest in your IPO. We've certainly supplied you with a priceless supply of self-defense market research.

In the meantime, guns have saved many more lives than they have taken. Your anecdotal evidence of the evils of guns can be balanced out by many more stories of guns STOPPING bad guys like the murdering idiot in Port Arthur. Many of these stories come from members of this board if you care to actually listen.

The ability of a few murdering idiots to infrequently use a gun to kill children is the price we pay to effectively defend ourselves. Taking guns away from law-abiding citizens will not ever stop murder. As pointed out by others (and supported by actual FACTS), taking guns away from citizens leads to more violence. More importantly, the individual right to keep and bear arms prevents tyranny, which has proven can lead to rounding up and killing children AS A MATTER OF GOVERNMENT POLICY. I have the facts to support this readily available.

If your claim above is NOT true, I fear what you will become as you grow up unless you quickly realize how disrespectful and truly vile it is to make such a claim. We were all young and ignorant once, youth is no excuse for maliciousness.

This is "The High Road" because most of us will apologize when we're wrong, but more importantly, we strive to never say things for which we need to apologize later. You apologize in only your second post - right in the title.

Personally, if I were arguing from the depths of personal tragedy, I would not apologize for a thing I said. Ever.

Hmm, sooooo...

False claims about crime reduction which he can't support and which are then demonstrated false...plus...false claims about the creation of the laws he loves so much and then lied about...

And now he's vanished into the ether...

What was that definition again?

Accepting...

for a moment that your claim to have had a sister killed in that tragedy, I have a couple of questions.

Would you rather the incident turned out the way it did or do you think it would have been better if a citizen with a firearm had stopped Martin Bryant's rampage before the first innocent had been killed?

If you could be transported back to 10 seconds before the rampage started (with full knowledge of what is about to happen), standing behind Bryant with a pistol in your hand what would you have done? Ended his idiocy or stuck with your principles and laid down the firearm?

Your opinion of me is of little matter as are your answers but until you can provide honest answers to yourself for those questions your defense of your position wil continue to be riddled with contradictions.

migoi

This is a warning to anyone who comes on THR with an agenda. If you don’t have the facts and you are making up a "info" to propagate a discussion, you will be taken to task. There are far to many members that have the facts to back up what they say and to prove you wrong. Good luck.

Check out the kids web page,
Basically he's a video game "warrior"
One thing I taught my kids was to be humble,
keep your mouth shut and try to learn as much
as possible from people with more experience in life than you.
Vindicator you might want to try that approach also

PS I have you on my ignore list after that silly little PM.
So bite yer bum mate, no more chuckin a spaz or earbashing
or we'll think your a few kangaroos loose in the top paddock!
Buzz off buggerlugs Oh and throw another shrimp on the barbie.

PLEASE TELL US WHEN THERE WILL BE NO MORE CRIME, ANYWHERE AND AT ANY TIME, AND I'M PRETTY SURE WE'LL GLADLY STOP CARRYING GUNS AND OTHER DEFENSIVE WEAPONS, BECAUSE WHAT YOU'LL BE DESCRIBING WILL BE, WELL, HEAVEN.

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Well, if you could have that, why would it matter if you did carry your guns around?

vindi C

I'll end on one note. There is no need for self defence and the defence of others around you if there is no crime. This is EXACTLY what taking guns away from Australlians has done! decreased crime tenfold, look at the statistics. All our gun laws do is take guns away from people who dont need them. Those who actually use them on farms or those who like having fun with them on gun ranges are aloud to and are most welcome to! It's a real pitty that harsh gun laws didn't work out in many European companys, i guess it's just the luck of the draw.

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I have carried a pistol continuously for the past twenty years. I can safely say that as a result crime has pretty much left me alone. I have suffered a few property crimes, but no assaults. I've even encountered a cranked up burglar who wisely decided to leave when he saw I had a pistol in my hand. Another time, I was accosted by a fellow in a dark parking lot who was obviously trying to set me up for a strong arm robbery by his friends. He and his friends quickly left the scene when he discovered I had a pistol and was prepared to use it.

I believe that your statement that self defence isn't necessary when there is no crime is a product of your public school education. Listen to me carefully, public school does not reflect real life. This is important, because your teachers haven't experienced life as it is unless they have done a stint in other rough and tumble occupations like the military, construction, ranching, etc.

Guns are fun. I enjoy them immensely. Shooting is probably my principal hobby. However, after twenty years in the military and seventeen plus years as a deputy sheriff, I know exactly what they are for.

I strongly suggest you get off of your crusade to separate reality from what you wish things to be. It will save you much disappointment when you are on your own and ultimately responsible for your safety and happiness, and of those you choose to love.

Pilgrim

Admin,

Will someone please poof this idiot. First of all Australia is not the best country in the world. This is only his 15 year old unresearched and unqualified opinion. Secondly, this clown obviously doesn't have any knowledge or even a clue about what he is braying about. (He shoots trees !) If he wants to let the BG's have their way with him thats OK by me. Thirdly, I just don't want to listen to him spew his uneducated and uninformed drivel. -Don

Come on, seriously, don't you guys feel just a little silly arguing with a 15-year old video gamer? Don't you all have better things to do...like trim your toenails or stare at the ceiling or something

- Gabe

Vindi, I would be glad to go back to reasoned debate. However, I was not the one that left it.

I have asked you a question in your original thread twice. You have completely ignored it. It is not much of a debate if you refuse to participate.

master "c"

you are right, i am now currently seeking a safe way to remove my guns from the planet.
how was that, Art?

Made For Good Reading

As a noob here, I gotta say I think I got a crash course in THR philosophy and info about the backgrounds/experience that many members are speaking from. Altho I question vindi's motives-- bringing up an anti-gun topic here seems like somebody bringing up "Stirring With A Stick: Pros & Cons" topic in a hornets' nest, it made for some excellent reading.

Here are the statistics for the crime rate in Texas.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm

Governer George W. Bush signed the Concealed Handgun License bill in 1995.

At this point, the murder rate begins to fall dramatically, from 2022 per 100,000 inhabitants to 1238 per 100,000 in the year 2000.

The forcible rape rate also falls, from 9102 per 100,000 in 1994 to 7856 in 2000.

Of course, this does not mean that there is a direct link between citizens beginning to carry concealed handguns and the drop in crime. However, it does show that there was no increase as a result of the CHL law.

I don't believe all Australians go around saying "Crikey, mate!" and wrestling crocs, and you shouldn't believe that all law abiding American gun owners are crazy rednecks.

The violent crime rates in Australia and Britian are inversely proportional to gun ownership it seems. Violent crimes have been going up, while gun ownership has been going down. Why is that?

"There is no need for self defence and the defence of others around you if there is no crime."

Wow. So, when was the last time Australia was invaded? Was it ever? Not in modern history, that I can recall. So, since there's no need for self defense, why do you have armed forces? Because it's a dangerous world out there, and you *might* need to defend yourselves? Ahh, of course! The same logic applies to individuals. I, and my family, have never been the victims of a violent crime. Does that mean there's no need to learn to defend myself? Not in my book.

It's been said before, in this world there are sheep, wolves, and wolf dogs. Which do you choose to be?

Come on, seriously, don't you guys feel just a little silly arguing with a 15-year old video gamer? Don't you all have better things to do...like trim your toenails or stare at the ceiling or something

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Actually -- I view the responses to these folks as "sharpening the saw". Best case, we all get some new ideas and arguments from each other to use to further our cause. Worst case, I've done some more thinking about a topic I enjoy.

It simply amazes me how high-level THRers treat these topics. It actually takes some Ad Hominem or off-topic attacks before we actually stoop the the level of calling someone with 5-10 posts - all baiting - a (gasp!) "Troll". I'm sure anything worse gets editied by our fine Moderators, but I really enjoy seeing the underlying good nature and open-arm attitude of THR regulars.

Actually convincing these "fire and forget" visitors to THINK about what they BELIEVE regarding guns would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.

Hmmm there i was thinking you might be a bunch of intelligent people with some interesting arguments but i guess i was wrong, maybe you are just a pack of gun stroking rednecks with an IQ lower than the current room temperature. It's a real pitty, some of your arguments were making me think twice, making me consider that it didn't matter if you killed someone over the $20 in your wallet and maybe a black eye, well i guess you just messed up.

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vindi i think you just dont understand the American culture. The heart of America thrives on self-sufficiency. We (obviously not all Americans, but us of the same mindset as you will find here at THR) take great pride in fulfilling all of our needs and that of our families as much as we are able to do so. This includes insuring the safety of our loved ones. It means that we will do whatever is necessary to protect ourselves and those whom we love.

If you are indeed the family member of one of the victims, I am sorry you had to go through that. But imagine for a moment a scenario.

You are with your family in a public place. A criminal (who bought his guns on the black market, where criminals usually get their guns from) enters and starts shooting people. In front of you are three items. A camera, a cell phone, and a gun.
You have three options. You can take pictures of the criminal and hope that police will find it and discover the identity of the murderer, after he's killed everyone.
You could call 911 and hope that police will make it there in time before the murderer kills everyone.
Or you could be a caring human and stop the loss of life by returning fire at the murderer.

Yes the example is extreme, but your answer to it will reveal just how much of a human being you are. Maybe you will wish you had a taser, but then realize you are too far away for it to be effective, or the murderer is wearing thick clothing that the barbs cannot pierce.


Finally, I have little desire to change your mind. You are not from here. You do not understand the mind of the criminal. I have a greater interest in changing the mind of my fellow countryman that shares your opinions.



Lonestar, i just used that same argument on a group of canadians last week, to no avail.