When to push the reset button

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The question has been raised in several different threads lately along the lines of "When do we use the 2nd Amendment?" I received this via email today from The Federalist Patriot:

"The instrument by which it [government] must act are either the AUTHORITY of the laws or FORCE. If the first be destroyed, the last must be substituted; and where this becomes the ordinary instrument of government there is an end to liberty!"

--Alexander Hamilton

It's worth thinking about.

[edited to correct a typo, per LG's suggestion]
 
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I agree with Molanlabe, if you have to ask the question it isnt time yet. The founding fathers did everything they could NOT to go to war, and they didnt untill there was no other choice.
 
I'm not trying to incite a revolution here by suggesting that we are on the verge, but this is an interesting question. I'm not sure I buy the "know-it-when-you-see-it" argument. I bet that by the time the citizens of Nazi Germany saw it, it was far too late to do anything about it.

I don't think we're any closer to falling into a totalitarian state than we were in the early years of the cold war, but I believe that part of the reason for that is because the citizens are still armed. I think if the antis had their way we'd be a lot closer to the edge right now.
 
I'm not sure using Germany as an example holds up. I am not convinced the Germans ever saw any problems until they began to lose the war, then all of a sudden it changed.

I read a quote from an intelligence officer during WWII, I can't remember where I saw it or who he was but he said "Funny how now that the war is over there isn't one single Nazi in all of Germany, they were all against Hitler from the beginning."

Anyway, not to go off topic but I don't think the comparison with Germany holds.
 
I'm not comparing us to Germany. I'm just saying that human psychology is human psychology, and your argument that we're not as bad as Nazi Germany is a perfect example of what I'm saying. Imagine that the people in Nazi Germany had an earlier example of a regime like Third Reich to look back on. The people in Nazi Germany would have made the exact same argument as your making--You can't compare us Nazi Germans to that earlier example because they were bad people and we're good people.

Again, I'm not comparing us to the Nazi Germans. I'm just saying that it's basic human nature to give your community group the benefit of the doubt while judging others harshly, and no person or group sees themselves as the monster. Even Hitler considered himself a hero. That is the reason that when a society slips past the time to push the reset button, that society is not likely to accept that fact. It will be left to the world community to push the reset button, and not the rogue nation or its people.
 
Well, here are a few things that seemed to bother our founding fathers. After all of this, they seemed to think it was the appropriate time.

In reference to King George:

--He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
--He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
--He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
--He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
--He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
--He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
--He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
--He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
--He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
--He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
--He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies, without the Consent of our legislatures.
--He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
--He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
--For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
--For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
--For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
--For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
--For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
--For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
--For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
--For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
--For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
--He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
--He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
--He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
--He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
 
The idea that the American Revolution was entirely compelling is a romantic notion. It wasn't that popular in its day. Neither was entering WWII. Who knows how history will view the war in Iraq. If it goes well, there will be heroes and legends. If it goes poorly like Bay of Pigs, Somalia, or Vietnam, there will be bums.

Changing the status quo requires people with vision, those who can project where matters will end up, if action isn't taken. I wouldn't subscribe to the argument that the exact time for action will be obvious and inescapable.
 
Most modern revolutions weren't started by people with the vision needed to project a desirable outcome. Most were started by people as bad as or worse than those they sought to overthrow. I'm afraid that a second American revolution would be much the same.

Frankly I don't have a lot of hope for America at the moment. I despise the two major parties about equally. There are good people within each party, but the system has been orchestrated in such a way as to keep those people out of positions of power because they'd threaten the status quo.

Meanwhile we have people on the payroll of drug companies also on the committees that decide whether or not to take dangerous drugs off the market, and fanatics from both parties racing to dismantle the Bill of Rights. Rather than thoughtful political discourse, we have paid hacks on both sides of the fence shouting to the choir, whipping the crowds into mindless frenzies that would have made Joesef Goebels proud. And we have a populace so stupified that they accept such rabble as information.

If I had to bet money one way or the other, I'd say we're doomed.
 
When it's time it will be as plain as the nose on your face.

You can say that, but much lesser and fewer infringements upon their liberties inspired the Founding Fathers to revolt. The "time when it will be as plain as the nose on your face" passed a long time ago.

Let's face it, folks, the people of this country are generally fat, happy, and complacent. The vast majority don't know even who represents them in Congress and the Senate, and could probably care less. The politicians in this country, for the most part, look at the Constitution as a document to be bypassed in any way possible, not to be followed as a blueprint for our government. The "time when it was plain as the nose on your face" has passed by us a long time ago.
 
Re:

I think I gotta stand with Oracle on this...we as Americans have become a society of complacent fat cats who have no clue as to what is really going on around us. Most folks have no idea who their reps are in local government let alone national government. My guess is by the time the time comes the bad guys will be so well entrenched that anythingn we do at that time will be too late. Our forefathers were way more attentive to the goings on than we are. They were also willing to act to make things right. Most Americans these days are too satisfied to sit and wait for someone else to do something about the issues going on. I've said it before and will continue to say it. We need to get off our dead ends, wake up and start paying attention to what's REALLY going on in this country. We as gun owners seem to have a better grasp on some of these things but even we tend to get a bit complacent about things we need to stay on top of. Gunrights is a tiny piece of it all...as the rest of our rights are also being whittled away over time. They continue to chip away bit by bit hoping we will not notice....Eventually things are going to come to a head here in the U S of A and we will have to decide to stand up and fight for the rights granted us under our Constitution or sit idly by and let someone else make the decision for us. The choice is ours...my greatest fear is that we will end up living under the UN as just another third world country with no rights. mack....
 
Eventually things are going to come to a head here in the U S of A and we will have to decide to stand up and fight for the rights granted us under our Constitution

You won't be able to "stand up and fight" until organized. I don't know that gun owners in significant numbers really do more than talk big. If it so late in the process, where are the militias? The alternative is politics and the remains of democracy.
 
"You won't be able to "stand up and fight" until organized. I don't know that gun owners in significant numbers really do more than talk big. If it so late in the process, where are the militias? "

Militias were organizing in large numbers in the mid nineties. I attended a meeting in a small town in Montana where they met in the high school gymnasium, and there were 700 people present.

Then Timothy McVeigh and whoever helped him from the inside pulled off Oklahoma City, and the fed's propaganda machine blamed it on the militias. They infiltrated the militias with agents provocateur and got a bunch of people arrested and salted away.

From everything I have heard since, the consensus now is to organize small cells in a leaderless resistance, should that unhappy need ever arise.

In practice, the line in the sand for many will probably have to do with the next phony "terrorist" attack they engineer, and use that as an excuse to suspend the Constitution and declare martial law, with everything that implies. They have said that is what they are going to do in that event. (See the statement by General Tommy Franks.) The Executive Orders are in place.
 
In practice, the line in the sand for many will probably have to do with the next phony "terrorist" attack they engineer, and use that as an excuse to suspend the Constitution and declare martial law, with everything that implies. They have said that is what they are going to do in that event. (See the statement by General Tommy Franks.) The Executive Orders are in place.

They infiltrated the militias with agents provocateur and got a bunch of people arrested and salted away.

I read all that too, in the Tinfoil Chronicles...

WildletsrollAlaska
 
In practice, the line in the sand for many will probably have to do with the next phony "terrorist" attack they engineer, - libertyteeth

I must have missed the first "phony" attack.
 
In practice, the line in the sand for many will probably have to do with the next phony "terrorist" attack they engineer, and use that as an excuse to suspend the Constitution and declare martial law, with everything that implies. They have said that is what they are going to do in that event. (See the statement by General Tommy Franks.) The Executive Orders are in place.

It is amazing to me that in one breath you accuse the government of staging terrorist attacks perpetrated by militias and also

From everything I have heard since, the consensus now is to organize small cells in a leaderless resistance, should that unhappy need ever arise.

attest to the implimentation of terrorist tactics by militias.

Are we to gather that the government is taking the time and effort to falsely paint militias as terrorists while at the same time they are behaving in a manner that is identical to terrorists? Wouldnt it be easier for the government just to point out their actual behavior rather than faking it?

Just between you and me, militias arent nearly important enough to anyone but their own members to go through the effort of staging anything bigger than a bake sale. I think the idea of a whole bunch of moderatly overweight gentleman running through the woods with SKS rifles and cammo, plotting to win the hearts and mind of the people into an armed refolt against the government (that they will be leading despite the body odor and missing teeth) is just as amusing to the feds as it is to me.
 
Just between you and me, militias arent nearly important enough to anyone but their own members to go through the effort of staging anything bigger than a bake sale. I think the idea of a whole bunch of moderatly overweight gentleman running through the woods with SKS rifles and cammo, plotting to win the hearts and mind of the people into an armed refolt against the government (that they will be leading despite the body odor and missing teeth) is just as amusing to the feds as it is to me.

Especially when, among the "militia members" I've met, more are interested in overthrowing the U.S. govt. and installing a theocracy. I don't take these pathetic malcontents that call themselves "militia" very seriously, sorry.
 
Real Gun, The first phony "terrorist" attack was the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993, where the FBI's agent provacateur provided the training and explosives, then told his handlers to come get 'em, but they opted to let the attack happen. Then there was Oklahoma City, where it is clear there were high grade military explosives placed on the support columns inside the building. Finally, evidence is accumulating that not only did the fedgov know about 911 in advance, it appears they may have actually orchestrated it. Sorry, these are uncomfortable facts, but for extensive documentation, see:

http://www.911citizenswatch.org/index.php

http://www.911truth.org/

http://www.infowars.com/

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd71.htm

http://www.thementalmilitia.org/

I await the response from the apologists for the fedgov to weigh in with name calling and aspersions, but no real rebuttals, because they won't investigate this information.
 
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