Another 38 thread

MrTuffPaws · Feb 27, 2005

As to my "Why is the 38 such a whimpy round" thread. This was not intended to become one of the caliber wars

It was just an observation that such a larger casing is loaded to power levels below that of the smaller 9mm para.

It is funny that around and over in the automatic forum, there are people that would not bet their life on 9mm, but here, 38spl is a commonly carried SD round. Keep in mind that I have no doubt that 38spl can and will stop someone, heck, I only shoot 9mm para autos myself.

This kinda leads into the question of as to why revolvers are so, how should I put it, stepped in their ammo slections. You got 38 which is less powerful that 9mm para, then the next step up is the mammoth 357mag. Was there historically some round that filled the gap in between the 38 and the 357 that I don't know about?

It seems to me that revolver ammo has been an evolution of giant power steepings with the additon of a few milimeters of brass to make sure the new gen does not work in the old gen. 38spl to 357mag. 44spl to 44mag. 45lc to 454 etc.... Where as in the auto world, you have the base 380ACP and 9mm then the 45ACP with a bunch of rounds to fill the gaps (ie 357sig, 40cal)

Old Dog · Feb 27, 2005

I'm not even quite sure what you're really asking ... but whatever, I think it may have something to do with the platforms as far as the mystique involved. Historically, most handgunners feel very secure in the reliability of their wheelguns, whereas, the history of the semi-auto carries with it the legend of the "jamming" phenomenom as well as the fact that most autoloader fans think that if you're gonna carry an auto, make it a .45 ...

I think it's also partially a cultural thing ... the .38 Special round is an American cartridge, carried for many years by LE, military and civilians in this country, whereas the 9mm was a European cartridge which didn't become popular in this country until the latter half of the 20th century.

The old 158-grain +P SWHP round had a very good track record as far as stopping power and was for a time considered more effective than the (at the time) loadings in 9mm. Now with the high-performance lighter .38 +Ps (such as the premium 125 grain JHPs) you get excellent velocity and expansion even from shorter-barreled .38s ...

MrTuffPaws · Feb 27, 2005

Hmm, maybe I don't even know what I am asking.

Okay, let me try again. Why isn't the revolver arena plagued with the various hybrid rounds and calibers that the auto arena is?

In auto land we have 45ACP, 9mm para, 357sig, 40cal, 10mm, 400 Corbon, 38 super, 380ACP, etc... You have multiple calibers that span the spectrum of power, yet many overlap with each other.

In revolver land, there is a much more natural progression of 38 to 357. 44spl to 44mag. 45LC to 454. There doesn't seem to be the mass confusion that you get with auto calibers, but you have these really big power jumps between the rounds.

Maybe I really have no question to ask, but more of an observation to share.

Tijeras_Slim · Feb 27, 2005

Maybe we revolver folks revel in our curmudgeonliness. I mean, afterall, the .38 Special is a nice round when you don't have your .38-40 available.

Oracle · Feb 27, 2005

It's probably because autopistols can only reliable handle rounds that are within a certain weight, shape, and power range, and beyond that, they won't function reliably in the gun.

Revolvers, because they don't rely on the power of the round to cycle the action, don't have this issue. You can load centerfire revolver rounds with a variety of projectiles, and with a variety of loads, to suit your situation. A .357 Magnum revolver can fire the lowest-powered .38 loads all the way to the highest powered .357 Magnum loads, without a hiccup. Autopistols cannot do that.

That's why you see a greater variety of calibers in the autopistol, because if you want an autopistol to fire a different load, you pretty much need a different autopistol. With most revolvers, you just vary the load, and put it in the same gun.

thatguy · Feb 27, 2005

Prior to very recently there wasn't much development in handgun ammunition. It was common for decades to go by without a new handgun round being introduced. But in the past 20 years activity in ammo development has stepped up considerably, and since the semi-auto has become the most popular handgun during this period, these are the guns seeing the most innovation. It's all a matter of timing.

BTW- I don't agree that the 9MM Parabellum is more powerful than the .38 Special. My carry load in .38 Special is a 125 JHP at a clocked 1,250 FPS. This compares favorably with the top 9MM loads. If restricted to factory ammo then yes, the .38 comes out on the short end because the ammo companies don't load the Special to its full potential because of the cheap guns out there. In a Ruger, or Colt or S&W the .38 Special can be loaded to levels that exceed most 9MM loads.

Oracle · Feb 27, 2005

Out of what size barrel are you getting the 1250 fps, thatguy?

This is generally the problem, most .38 Specials that people use for self defense have a 2-inch barrel. Out of smaller barrels, 9mm generally goes faster, because it's a higher pressure round. Out of longer barrels, the difference slims. But, seriously, how many people do you know that carry a .38 Special with a longer than 2 or 2 1/2 inch barrel? How many people do you know that regularly carry any revolver with a barrel longer than 3 inches?

Old Fuff · Feb 27, 2005

MrTuffPaws:

The Old Fuff will now conduct a history class. Donâ€™t sleep through it!

Most of the popular revolver cartridges started life during the 19th century black powder era. To get any power a large charge of powder was necessary, and the cartridge cases were long to accommodate this. Pistol cartridges came along much later after smokeless powder had been developed, and since smaller powder charges were sufficient the cases were shorter.

When the older revolver cartridges were loaded with smokeless powder the charges were kept low, lest a heavy charge damage or blow up an older gun. In recent years some of the old-timers have been hot rodded, but these have been labeled as â€œ+Pâ€ and are intended to be used in modern rather then older handguns.

Magnum revolver rounds are deliberately made longer then their standard counterpart so that the more powerful cartridge wonâ€™t get accidentally chambered into an older non-magnum gun. Of course going the other way around is O. K.

This should eliminate some of the confusion.

MrTuffPaws · Feb 28, 2005

BTW- I don't agree that the 9MM Parabellum is more powerful than the .38 Special. My carry load in .38 Special is a 125 JHP at a clocked 1,250 FPS. This compares favorably with the top 9MM loads. If restricted to factory ammo then yes, the .38 comes out on the short end because the ammo companies don't load the Special to its full potential because of the cheap guns out there. In a Ruger, or Colt or S&W the .38 Special can be loaded to levels that exceed most 9MM loads.

I agree completely. I was referring to factory loads.

ojibweindian · Feb 28, 2005

But, seriously, how many people do you know that carry a .38 Special with a longer than 2 or 2 1/2 inch barrel? How many people do you know that regularly carry any revolver with a barrel longer than 3 inches?

I carry a 4" 586 that I occasionally stoke with 125 grain SJHP in .38Spl cases. These rounds are hand loads and are a wee bit hotter than most commercial offerings. I would venture to guess, not having chrono'ed this load, that it's a bit better than any 125 grain 9mm readily available.

thatguy · Feb 28, 2005

Oracle, I used a 4" gun. This load loses about 75-90 FPS fired from a 2" revolver.

SLCDave · Feb 28, 2005

Okay, let me try again. Why isn't the revolver arena plagued with the various hybrid rounds and calibers that the auto arena is?

My theory is that the revolver isn't "tactical" enough. You can't get 30 rounds in it. The military generally doesn't use them. It's not prominently featured in movies or TV, most video games don't use them, so the crop of young [new] gun owners who are entering the market are looking for pistols.

That being said, there have been a couple new revolver rounds lately (.500 S&W, .460 S&W, and others I have missed, I'm sure), and I expect more to follow.

Nitram68 · Feb 28, 2005

molonlabe · Feb 28, 2005

The military generally doesn't use them.

I carried a .38S&W with tracers in the military.

Also another point the .38 special has been carries almost the entire century up until the 1990's successfully by law enforcement. I would trust it as a carry gun. If you want instant stop use a rifle.

PS I use my 5 shot stubby to shoot pins. I and my wife can clean a table with it. That requires hitting the pin precisely near the top to knock it off the table.

Oracle · Feb 28, 2005

Oracle, I used a 4" gun. This load loses about 75-90 FPS fired from a 2" revolver.

Have you actually chronoed this load from a 2-inch barreled revolver, or are you simply figuring it will lose 50 or so FPS per inch?

thatguy · Feb 28, 2005

I don't make an estimate without clearly stating it as such. I have chronographed all of my serious loads in various guns. The hot 125 JHP load loses 75-90 FPS stepping down from a 4" to a 2" barrel. The standard velocity loads (850 nominal FPS) lose less, around 40 FPS.

SLCDave · Mar 1, 2005

Quote:
The military generally doesn't use them.

I carried a .38S&W with tracers in the military.

You did, and some others did, but generally, they aren't as widely used as autos, which is the point I was making.

Also another point the .38 special has been carries almost the entire century up until the 1990's successfully by law enforcement. I would trust it as a carry gun. If you want instant stop use a rifle.

PS I use my 5 shot stubby to shoot pins. I and my wife can clean a table with it. That requires hitting the pin precisely near the top to knock it off the table.

You won't find me arguing with you. I love wheelguns. I was just stating that I think most new and young shooters are enamored with what they see on TV/Movies/Videogames, which is . The gunmakers seem to offer these new consumers the "Next Big Thing" that is "better" than everything else out there, and offer it to the new consumer, they will buy it.

Checkman · Mar 2, 2005

Absolutely. Revolvers just aren't considered as sexy by younger shooters. I'm thirty-seven and it has literally been in the last couple of years that I've changed my mind about revolvers. It started with my first M28 and shows no sign of stopping. But the wheelies are percieved as being used by old timers. They're old fashioned maybe even quaint.

The money is in semi-autos, but having said that manufactuers are selling snubbies like crazy. I suppose it has to do with the number of states that now have "shall-issue" laws. The wheelgun isn't as intimidating to non-shooters. And it seems to me that the 38 special is still going strong. Heck, Buffalo Bore just released a 38 load and those are the guys who specialize in hotrodding rounds like the 45-70 and the 454 Casull. Maybe there still is innovating work being done with revolver rounds.

Cosmoline · Mar 2, 2005

Okay, let me try again. Why isn't the revolver arena plagued with the various hybrid rounds and calibers that the auto arena is?

Look through "Cartridges of the World" and you may need to revise your opinion

There only APPEAR to be fewer revolver cartridges. This is because you are looking at the survivors of 140 years of natural selection. Look back over the past two centuries and you'll be amazed at the array of weird revolver cartridges that have come and gone. For every .45 Colt, .38 Special and .45 ACP there are a dozen hybrids and offshoots that were around for awhile but are now moribund. Someone better versed in cartridge lore than me could rattle off half a dozen .45 and .44 revolver rounds around in the late 19th century alone. Semis are at an earlier stage in their evolution right now. The only real new development in revolver cartridges is going on at the high end, due to better steels and a demand for ultra-powerful handgun cartridges. The small and mid-size revolvers seem to have settled into a nice set of standards.

Another 38 thread

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