Don't want to carry in church ? -- Church Shooting: 8 dead / 4 wounded (merged)

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What does that matter? A "church" is the collection of people there, not a building. There are many churches that meet in places that serve as something other than church buildings and they are still churches even though they don't have their own building. Either way the guy was a member of the church and it appears he specifically went there to do the shooting. It wouldn't have mattered even if they did have their own building. -DigMe

I know the people are considered a church, that is why I said it didn't happen in a church building. I know that it wouldn't have mattered where they where. I was just correcting the thread title a little bit.
 
When I was a kid, my family attended a very closely affiliated church in Wisconsin. I spoke with my dad today and he knew just about all of the victims, or in some cases knows the parents of the victims. Very, very sad situation. I think he's going up there to meet with some of the survivors this week.

For the record, while this wasn't a "church building", I believe this particular church used a conference room at the hotel as their regular meeting place.
 
I just wanted to echo a few other posters. I don't even practice very much and my draw and fire from IWB cover is always under 3 seconds and usually under 2. If I'm carrying in a pocket, time to fire is even less. Maybe when I'm over 70 years old it'll be slower, but c'mon, it's not that hard. It's far more difficult to get past zipper and underwear when you have to pee real bad. Think about it. What's your time to pee in a "high pressure" emergency situation? Granted everyone practices that every day, but you see my point.
 
From the Fox News story:

The born-again denomination focuses on "end-time" prophecies, and places a strong emphasis on using world news to "prove" that these are end times.

Not trying to put down anyone's religion choice certainly, but it doesn't take much of a leap of thinking to connect a church with beliefs centered around such things to people that are not quite alright in the first place.
 
LATEST UPDATE FROM APUPDATE 7:00 PM 3/13-05

Fifty to 60 people were at the service when it turned into a bloodbath. Ratzmann, a buttoned-down churchgoer known for sharing his homegrown vegetables with his neighbors, walked into the room and fired 22 rounds from a 9mm handgun. He even dropped a magazine and reloaded another.


One of Ratzmann's friends begged him to stop, calling him by name and saying, "Stop, stop, why?" police Capt. Phil Horter said. Chandra Frazier dove under a chair. The man sitting in it died.


"I just remember crawling on the carpet and just praying, screaming out and praying," Frazier told "Good Morning America" on Sunday.


After killing seven people and wounding four others, Ratzmann took his own life, leaving four rounds in his gun, police said.


The church's minister, Randy L. Gregory, 51, and his son, James Gregory, 16, of Gurnee, Ill., died, along with Harold Diekmeier, 74, of Delafield; Richard Reeves, 58, of Cudahy; Bart Oliver, 15, of Waukesha; Gloria Critari, 55, of Cudahy; and Gerald A. Miller, 44, of Erin, according to police and published reports.


Marjean Gregory, 52, of Gurnee, was hospitalized in critical condition. Matthew P. Kaulbach, 21, of Pewaukee and Angel M. Varichak, 19, of Helenville were hospitalized in satisfactory condition Sunday, a hospital spokeswoman said. A 10-year-old girl police identified as Lindsay also remained hospitalized.


The church group was 20 or 30 minutes into Saturday's service when the shots rang out.


Ratzmann regularly attended the gatherings at the Sheraton each Saturday — the church group did not have a building of its own. But Frazier said Ratzmann walked out of a recent sermon "sort of in a huff."


"Something that the minister said he was upset about. I'm not quite sure what exactly," she said.


During the shooting rampage, Ratzmann told the friend who approached him that he was upset, said Waukesha County District Attorney Paul Bucher, although he was unsure over what.


He was not known to have threatened anyone and had no criminal record, police said. They seized three computers, a .22-caliber rifle and a box of bullets from the modest two-story home Ratzmann shared with his mother and adult sister.


Neighbors said Ratzmann built his own greenhouse, kept a well-tended garden and even used humane traps to free squirrels that got in the yard.


"He wasn't a dark guy. He was average Joe," said Shane Colwell, a neighbor who knew Ratzmann for about a decade. "It's not like he ever pushed his beliefs on anyone else."


But another neighbor called Ratzmann a drinker, and church members said he struggled with depression for years.


"Terry suffered from depression, on and off. When he was really depressed he didn't talk to people. Sometimes it was worse than others," said Kathleen Wollin, 66, who was sitting at the front of the room during Saturday's service.





The district attorney said Ratzmann was on the verge of losing his job as a computer technician. Ratzmann had been working for an employment agency, assigned to a health care company.

Colwell said Ratzmann was so devout about attending church that he skipped Colwell's wedding because it was on a Saturday.

The Living Church of God, based in Charlotte, N.C., places a strong emphasis on using world events to prove the end of the world is near.

Earlier this year, the group's leader, Dr. Roderick C. Meredith, wrote that events prophesied in the Bible are "beginning to occur with increasing frequency."

"We are not talking about decades in the future. We are talking about Bible prophesies that will intensify within the next five to 15 years of your life," he wrote in the church's magazine, Tomorrow's World.

The church branch that met in Brookfield was started by Randy Gregory, who moved his family from Texas to Gurnee, Ill., five years ago, said next-door neighbor Toni D'Amore, 47. Gregory and his 16-year-old son, James, were among the victims.

"Their children were probably, I'd have to say, were probably some of the nicest and most respectable young men I've ever met," she said.

She said James excelled in school. "He just had potential coming out of every pore of his body. You know, the world's lost something there."

Don Free's niece, Angel Varichak, was one of the wounded. Free said she was expected to survive.

"I wanted to know where God was when this happened," Free told the Chicago Sun-Times. "He was supposed to be everywhere. He could have at least been there."
 
You are right a well trained CCW would have been able to stop this between the second or so round fired.

I often hear CCW is a deterrent to crime. Even with this guy suicidal, I don't think he would have come to a gunfight if he knew there were a possibility/probability of facing armed resistance.

Suiciders are cowards. Cowards don't exactly stand up to confrontation.
 
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walked into the room and fired 22 rounds from a 9mm handgun. He even dropped a magazine and reloaded another.

He had the new magazines, one can conclude.

22 rounds, the last into his head, plus a reload. Semi-aimed fire, as he hit 12 people. That means he ran that table in less than 20 seconds.

Still PLENTY of time for a practiced CCW holder to stop him--likely in around 5-6 seconds.

How many lives would CCW have saved? 4? 5? 6?
 
By the way, he worked for Addecco and was assigned to GE Medical.

GEMed has had more than a few strange ducks--about 6-8 months ago, another one was nabbed for some serious criminal activity, as well.
 
Neon, this guy was wacked-out.

CCW or not, wackos do what they want. It's reasonably NORMAL people who think twice about pulling out a gun where CCW is legal.

Besides, there is such a thing as 'suicide by cop,' where the wacko wants to off himself but doesn't have the guts--so he waves a gun at the police. They cooperate by shooting him dead.

To me, it's the same difference.
 
During the shooting rampage, Ratzmann told the friend who approached him that he was upset, said Waukesha County District Attorney Paul Bucher, although he was unsure over what.

Uh...so someone was able to walk up to him, ask him a question, get an answer...and what? 'Oh, okay. Continue killing, I'm gonna go hit the head?'

:cuss:

He also stopped to reload. Now, granted a reload, even unpracticed, can go pretty fast, a matter of seconds...but in a room with 60-70 people...no one tried to rush him, stop him....

:cuss:

And yes, I am hoping that some proponents of Wisconsin's CCW issue put a little reminder out there in regards to this. I mean, the anti's can dance in the blood...maybe we should too.
 
This "church" was preparing for the end of the world, next Tuesday or some such BS. It's unlikely someone would be CCW'ing this weekend if they have been praying for the end of the world for months....

Nutcase shoots a room full of nutcases, I'm afraid it's nothing more than that.
It's a tragedy, no question, but a far cry from a surprising occurence I think.

You guys are applying logical thinking and a rational person mentality to this thing, neither of which apply to this particular fringe group.
 
TexasSIGman,
Wow ... that was monumentally ignorant. Let me guess ... you know absolutely nothing about the subject but what you're told by Geraldo. You have never heard of this group before, have not bothered to research their beliefs, and are generally talking out of knee-jerk prejudice against anything that isn't just like your church. Am I close?

I know Geraldo says this is a group of mind-controlling, paramilitary cultists who want to grind up your babies to put in their matzos while bowing towards Mecca inside a pentagram while jabbing a Jesus voodoo doll with a broken cross, but maybe (just maybe) he and his ilk aren't the oracle of truth you think they are. Let me put it simply; these people are no more a cult than the groups that practice ritual cannibalism and feasting on blood as a part of their worship service. (Body of christ and all that.) They go to church the same day Jesus did, try to live good lives and try to understand the world as best they can. That they don't send their kids to Sunday school, don't celebrate your favorite pseudo-religious holidays and like to read the end of the Bible does not make you in some way superior to tham. These people aren't perfect, and I'm not convinced they've got it all right, but they're also not "nutcases" because they believe something different than you.

Saturday night (before I'd heard about this shooting) I went to dinner with some friends - two of which - unbeknownst to me until today - happened to belong to Living Church of God. Good kids. As I said before, my parents knew most of the victims. My mom went to school with one of the ladies who was murdered. These people had slightly different beliefs to be sure, but they weren't nutcases. They were good, reasonable, average people . Do I know that because network TV says so? Nope. I know because I know them and my family knows them. But gee ... why worry about something like reality when bigoted witch hunts are so much more fun?!?

"Nutcase shoots a room full of nutcases" indeed. Next time some friends of your family are murdered, I'll be sure to give them the same consideration and benefit of the doubt.
 
these people are no more a cult than the groups that practice ritual cannibalism and feasting on blood as a part of their worship service. (Body of christ and all that.)

If you intend to be "sensitive" about religion, you'd better think twice before you post.
 
Saturday's incident goes to show that gun madness may erupt anywhere. Surely, few situations feel as safe as a church service, where you put yourself in the hands of a higher power in communion with others. Yet a gun-wielding man disturbed that sacred haven and rained down death and destruction on the congregation.

Saturday's carnage followed on the heels of two other shooting incidents that got national play. A man who held a grudge against the judicial system allegedly shot to death the mother and husband of a Chicago federal judge and then shot himself to death last week as police were closing in on him in West Allis. And in Atlanta a man being brought to court for a rape trial overpowered a deputy and took her gun, then entered the courtroom and killed the presiding judge and court reporter, a deputy who tried to stop him and a federal agent during his flight from authorities.

At a later time, we must try to decipher the lessons of the tragedy. The authorities should trace how Ratzmann got his gun. Did he do so legally? Are there any safeguards that can be put in place to keep guns out of the hands of would-be mass killers?

Gun violence has dropped in America. Can it drop more drastically?

Can the nation improve the detection and treatment of mental illness to the point of preventing mass killings?

Those are questions to explore in the future. But right now we mourn.

Here it goes!! The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel begins twisting the truth.
 
Would a CCH have been able to abreviate the shooting? Maybe so, maybe not. But what would have happened should CCH been allowed in churches is the deterrent effect.

"Humm, I want to <insert crime of choice> but what if one of them is packing? Will I get 'em all? Will I get stopped before I get started?"

CCH is all about deterrence. IIRC the Long Island train shooter travelled to NY to do his deed specifically because he knew his victims would be unarmed and hence, able to conduct his affairs unhindered by an armed victim.
 
My comments are less about the event, and more about the discussion of the event.

Why is it that whenever religion is in any way involved, no matter how irrelevent to the event, people completely lose their minds and manners?

This is a tragic story about a disturbed person commiting a horrendous crime. It is also about the personnal tradgedy being suffered by the families of all involved, victim, shooter and witnesses. The fact that it happened at a religious gathering is a minor issue. Religion is largely an emotional/spiritual issue. That means you have to put some effort into an intellectual discussion.

As an investigator you rarely accept what is laid out for your view. You dig into the background to learn about the subject. You also search for the facts that have not been laid at your feet. You want to know what you haven't been told either by design or simple omisssion.

When you have the facts based on knowledge, rather than passion, fear or prejudice, you can then make intelligent unbiased assessments of the incident. Otherwise you stand a good chance of just sounding stupid.

If any of us are involved in a use of force incident, we want a fair treatment in the "clarity of Monday morning hindsight." That said, none of us were in that room or situation. Because we talk about it more, there is a chance we may have seen an opportunity to defend that was missed, but even then an opportunity and probablility of success are two very different things.

I'll get off my soap box now.
 
The morning paper here in Milwaukee now states that it took "one minute" for the shooter to go through 22 rounds and a reload.

I don't know how they came up with "one minute," but that means that a well-trained CCW holder could have prevented approximately 6 deaths, maybe more.
 
Cordex:

I don't think I said anywhere that these were bad people. I'm sure good people get sucked into this kind of thing all the time.

My point is that when you have a religion that is actively hoping for the "end time" or whatever you want to call it, that will attract at some point someone that is not quite alright.

The argument that if someone was CCW in this church meeting does not make sense. Folks that CCW in general are interested in preserving life, either their own or someone elses.

Members of a church that believe the end time is now, and they are going to be rewarded in heaven soon, are not likely to be the personality type that will actively defend themselves, since that behavior almost goes against the teachings of their church.

As we've learned from the Middle East, if you have a religion like Islam, where in it's pure form is fine, but twist it where it appears to reward violent behavior, then you can't be surprised when you attract a certain type of person.

I'm sorry for the loss of life here, and it's always a tragedy that people can't deal with their thoughts and emotions in a peaceful manner, but the argument that someone might CCW and save everyone in the room just doesn't wash in a case like this.
 
You are right a well trained CCW would have been able to stop this between the second or so round fired. I have been practicing for and competeing in IDPA for 3 years off and on. And I am only about the middle of the pack in our club, but my draw from cover is 1.2 to 1.3 seconds day in and day out. Factor in suprize and other situational things it well could be more like 2.5 -3.0 seconds before I could bet on drawing and shooting. But that still my have been able to cut the death toll down by half or more.
Coma, not knocking you but never, ever mistake what you are doing in IDPA (or any other shooting game) for real, quality training from a professional. It'll get you killed. My suggestion to you is to save up some bucks and hit one of the half dozen or so really good schools for a basic pistol course. Games are just that, games. They are good for developing your game mentality but they will not amply prepare you for a real world encounter.

Greg
 
If you intend to be "sensitive" about religion, you'd better think twice before you post.
I was simply pointing out that if one wants to make light of another's faith and practices, the same ignorant tactics can be applied to any group. Labeling this group a cult was a debate tactic used to vilify, dismiss and condemn without consideration. Labeling those who take communion cannibals is just as reasonable.

I don't think I said anywhere that these were bad people. I'm sure good people get sucked into this kind of thing all the time.
Actually, you said they were a room full of nutcases being killed by a nutcase.
As we've learned from the Middle East, if you have a religion like Islam, where in it's pure form is fine, but twist it where it appears to reward violent behavior, then you can't be surprised when you attract a certain type of person.
Again a demonstration of how little you know about this particular group.
Members of a church that believe the end time is now, and they are going to be rewarded in heaven soon, are not likely to be the personality type that will actively defend themselves, since that behavior almost goes against the teachings of their church.
Well since you obviously know so much more about these people than I do, I'll have to defer to you.

From my perspective, these people are like any other group of folks. Some are pacifists, some are self-righteous, some are quietly good people, some are smart, some are stupid, some are poor, some are wealthy - in short, they're a pretty average group of individuals. In fact, I'd bet you'd find a very similar range of people - good and bad - in your church, if you bothered to look.

I'd also note that many average Christian churches believe in being teleported immediately to heaven or hell as soon as their physical body perishes. If one holds the belief that a blink of an eye after you die one is going to be standing in front of the pearly gates, wouldn't the same "logic" apply? By the same reasoning you've been trying to use, wouldn't someone who believes that be just as unlikely to defend themself? Or is that different because it's familiar?

Look, sometime go back and read my positions on the Branch Davidians (in short, the whole Waco debacle appeared to me to be two groups of heavily armed crazies looking for a fight and finding one) - I'm with you to an extent. I'm just saying you're utterly ignorant as to the beliefs of these people and what they're like and you're laughably trying to come off as an expert. In your ignorance, you're ascribing beliefs, behaviors and attitudes that are simply false. Sure, a few of them are zealots no doubt, but I've personally known Baptist zealots, Jewish zealots, Catholic zealots, and Methodist zealots. There are fanatics and freaks in any group, but to label the whole group as "nutcases" just like the shooter, and to further say outright that it wasn't surprising that there was a psychopath among them because of their faith, and to go on to imply that their church teaches violence in some form is beyond misinformed. To put it politely.

I'm not trying to defend these people's beliefs. They differ from mine substantially and I have no dog in that fight. I'm offended on a far more personal level - knowing some of them personally and others through my family. I'm sure there are nutcases in the group, but no more than in yours, mine - or even on this forum.
 
"I wanted to know where God was when this happened," Free told the Chicago Sun-Times. "He was supposed to be everywhere. He could have at least been there."
yeah!!!! cause everyone knows that god is our personal babysitter, ready to stop us from touching a hot stove or falling into a bucket of water.

whats the scripture say? "time and unforeseen occurrence befall us all".
 
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