Zebulon
Member
How's that for direct commentary? Just an opinion, but really, when will it end?......Zebulon........ Go ahead, I can take it......
Shotguns are Shotguns...ARs are ARs....Just an Observation.
- Thread starter Zebulon
- Start date
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True enough. I go along with the ol' "a shotgun is a swiss army gun" POV. Purely for anti-BG use, I'd go with my Bushhmaster. However, given just one 'all around gun' and having the choice between only the dozen G and the AR, I'd go with my 870 - it'll take deer, elk or bear out to 100 yards for me or serve as a HD gun without giving up much to any long arm in .556..
My 2 pennies.
Biker
My 2 pennies.
Biker
dfariswheel
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 6,651
The one thing that makes the shotgun so effective and devastating a weapon is the SPEED at which you can put that load of shot on target.
Anything you add to the gun adds bulk and weight, and makes the gun clumsy and slow to swing.
EVERYTHING is a comprimise. Add any accessory and it slows things down.
My problem with the AR-15 look-alike shotguns is, they swing and point like a plank.
A heavy ackward plank.
Oh, they look "cool", which I suspect is the main reason.
Strangely, here in the early 21st Century, the combat shotgun has staged a come-back in the war.
A lot of high speed-low drag people in Iraq are using shotguns for the house and street fighting, and you don't see any of these tricked out "Hollywood Specials".
Most of them are surprisingly close to being just stock guns with short barrels, magazine extensions, and not much else.
The KISS principle holds true.
In the case of shotguns, Speed Kills......The bad guys.
Anything you add to the gun adds bulk and weight, and makes the gun clumsy and slow to swing.
EVERYTHING is a comprimise. Add any accessory and it slows things down.
My problem with the AR-15 look-alike shotguns is, they swing and point like a plank.
A heavy ackward plank.
Oh, they look "cool", which I suspect is the main reason.
Strangely, here in the early 21st Century, the combat shotgun has staged a come-back in the war.
A lot of high speed-low drag people in Iraq are using shotguns for the house and street fighting, and you don't see any of these tricked out "Hollywood Specials".
Most of them are surprisingly close to being just stock guns with short barrels, magazine extensions, and not much else.
The KISS principle holds true.
In the case of shotguns, Speed Kills......The bad guys.
Ironworker
Member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2005
- Messages
- 76
"My problem with the AR-15 look-alike shotguns is, they swing and point like a plank."
Are you objecting to the pistol grip or collapsable stock modifications, or the "mall ninja special" stuff beyond that: the lights, lasers, self-adhesive rhinestones, sidesaddles, cosmetic mirrors, picatinny rails, glow-in-the-dark sights, grip tape, more sidesaddles, weaver rails, cigarett lighter/power socket, 12-round extension tube, and lemon zester?
Personally, I shoot a heck of a lot better with a pistol grip and ghost ring sights (skeet have no fear of me otherwise), but the rest of the gun will retain the "stock" look.
Are you objecting to the pistol grip or collapsable stock modifications, or the "mall ninja special" stuff beyond that: the lights, lasers, self-adhesive rhinestones, sidesaddles, cosmetic mirrors, picatinny rails, glow-in-the-dark sights, grip tape, more sidesaddles, weaver rails, cigarett lighter/power socket, 12-round extension tube, and lemon zester?
Personally, I shoot a heck of a lot better with a pistol grip and ghost ring sights (skeet have no fear of me otherwise), but the rest of the gun will retain the "stock" look.
jacketch
Member
Ditto on that, except maybe the lemon zester.
357wheelgunner
Member
What happened to "If it ain't broke don't fix it" or "leave well enough alone"?
I think people tend to do too much in the area of addons to both shotguns and ARs. I wrote a post about a 3 gun match I observed and how almost every AR15 there had a verticle foregrip and a light and an addon rail and all sorts of battery powered crap stuck onto it. However I only saw one or two people actually use their verticle foregrip the rest just worked around it. Why not just practice with the stock gun then buy the stuff you NEED for it?
My 870s are blued or parkerized, with wood stocks, with normal rifle sights, with mag extensions that stop at the end of the barrel. That is the way that they will stay because they work fine. I dont bother with a surefire forend because all throughout my house I have $2 night lights that are both dim and use low power. This is enough for me to locate a badguy and put a load of buckshot into his torso.
I think too many gunnies have fantasies of a dozen black clad ninjas invading their house wielding Steyr Augs and wearing kevlar. The worst I'm worried about are 2 or 3 home invaders armed with stolen hand guns and pistol grip shotguns. I practice enough with a basic shotgun and the ammo it stays loaded with to where if I go down it was my day to die, and there was not much else to be done about it. What more do you need?
I think people tend to do too much in the area of addons to both shotguns and ARs. I wrote a post about a 3 gun match I observed and how almost every AR15 there had a verticle foregrip and a light and an addon rail and all sorts of battery powered crap stuck onto it. However I only saw one or two people actually use their verticle foregrip the rest just worked around it. Why not just practice with the stock gun then buy the stuff you NEED for it?
My 870s are blued or parkerized, with wood stocks, with normal rifle sights, with mag extensions that stop at the end of the barrel. That is the way that they will stay because they work fine. I dont bother with a surefire forend because all throughout my house I have $2 night lights that are both dim and use low power. This is enough for me to locate a badguy and put a load of buckshot into his torso.
I think too many gunnies have fantasies of a dozen black clad ninjas invading their house wielding Steyr Augs and wearing kevlar. The worst I'm worried about are 2 or 3 home invaders armed with stolen hand guns and pistol grip shotguns. I practice enough with a basic shotgun and the ammo it stays loaded with to where if I go down it was my day to die, and there was not much else to be done about it. What more do you need?
Gordon
Member
Under 50 yards I'll take a SG. Not many defensive scenarios would justify shooting over 50 yards IMHO.
Over 50 yards to 200 yards I'll go .556 or 7.62x39mm. or .35 Remington or 45-70!
Over 200 yards and under 600 make mine .308(or 30-06 or 7mm or.....375H&H).
Over 600yards please pass the .50 BMG!
Over 50 yards to 200 yards I'll go .556 or 7.62x39mm. or .35 Remington or 45-70!
Over 200 yards and under 600 make mine .308(or 30-06 or 7mm or.....375H&H).
Over 600yards please pass the .50 BMG!
The sliding AR stock I have installed on my Mossberg 500 sure makes it handy to store on the tractor and the gun points just as well as it did with the standard sporting stock.
The 2" CAR15 recoil pad goes a long way towards soaking up the perceived recoil of the #4 1 1/4 oz 3 3/4 dram equiv shot loads and the 00 buck loads I use for dispatching vermin on the property.
The Hogue AR pistol grip sure goes a long way to soaking up recoil shock instead of transferring it directly into my palm, much better than the standard stock.
To each their own I guess.
The 2" CAR15 recoil pad goes a long way towards soaking up the perceived recoil of the #4 1 1/4 oz 3 3/4 dram equiv shot loads and the 00 buck loads I use for dispatching vermin on the property.
The Hogue AR pistol grip sure goes a long way to soaking up recoil shock instead of transferring it directly into my palm, much better than the standard stock.
To each their own I guess.
Zach S
Member
Onmilo, what adapter are you using on your mossberg?
/zips flame suit...
/zips flame suit...
scout26
Member
BLASPHEMER !!!! (someone had to say it.)
Ironworker: you owe me a keyboard. (will a 870 lemon zester fit an 11-87 or an 1100 ?? what about a Mossy 500 or 590 ??)
Brian Dale
Member
Zach S,
{Waiting for the new "Show us your tractor guns!" thread, with pictures of clever SG-to-tractor mounting hardware that people have built}
I don't see folks here throwing asparagus at people who make modifications for particular purposes -- "handy to store on the tractor" is a great example.
{Waiting for the new "Show us your tractor guns!" thread, with pictures of clever SG-to-tractor mounting hardware that people have built}
Ok, I missed this the first time around, but I feel that I need to jump in here.
I think sometimes we shotgunners get caught up in this black and white world where tradition = good, and new gear = bad. I think we are making a mistake if we do this. I see it all the time on the internet, and I think it is kind of silly. We rush to judgement. We see a product that is different somehow that what we have traditionally used, and we say to ourselves, it is different, surely it is not good. What has worked in the past is the only way to go.
Now I think this is silly, just as silly perhaps as the opposite side. Where inexperienced shooters think that they can slap all manner of doodads on their guns and that will make them into a better shooter.
It isn't black and white folks. Sometimes it is grey.
We won't know if a new idea or product is good until we get it and try it out for ourselves. Some of the hard core shotgunners on here know me, and they know that I don't talk crap about something unless I can back it up. I'm also the guy that will try anything. I will try new stuff to see if it works. My criteria is simple, does the new thing make me shoot better/faster than before, if so, it's good, if not, it's bad.
Some things work. Some don't. But I don't know until I try them, or somebody I trust tries them. And even then I can't assume that their parameters match mine.
I think some of you are deluding yourselves, that if you see somebody with different kinds of gear, you assume that that person is somehow inferior to you. Often that is true, but guess what? There are some of us out there who have a couple hundred thousand rounds through a regular pump shotgun, who do have weird groovy guns that we are playing with, and if you don't think we can shoot them, we are more than willing to compete against you.
357wheelgunner, I'm going to pick on you for a minute. And this isn't personal. I also commented on your thread in rifles where you talked about the single 3gun match that you watched and used to make broad assumptions about. If I recall correctly you had a whole bunch of guys who are addicted to 3gun take you to task. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that I've either shot in, SOed, designed, run, or watched more 3gun competitions in the last week than you have in your life. Beware the assumptions that you are making. Just because a couple of guys with the bling can't shoot, don't assume that the rest of us can't.
I use a vertical foregrip on my rifle, and a really goofy looking shotgun. Perhaps I'm just a weenie gamer? I'm going to put an M4 collapsible on one of my goofy shotguns. After I put four or five thousand rounds through it, I'll be sure to let you guys know my opinion. I figure at that point I'll know what I'm talking about.
I think sometimes we shotgunners get caught up in this black and white world where tradition = good, and new gear = bad. I think we are making a mistake if we do this. I see it all the time on the internet, and I think it is kind of silly. We rush to judgement. We see a product that is different somehow that what we have traditionally used, and we say to ourselves, it is different, surely it is not good. What has worked in the past is the only way to go.
Now I think this is silly, just as silly perhaps as the opposite side. Where inexperienced shooters think that they can slap all manner of doodads on their guns and that will make them into a better shooter.
It isn't black and white folks. Sometimes it is grey.
We won't know if a new idea or product is good until we get it and try it out for ourselves. Some of the hard core shotgunners on here know me, and they know that I don't talk crap about something unless I can back it up. I'm also the guy that will try anything. I will try new stuff to see if it works. My criteria is simple, does the new thing make me shoot better/faster than before, if so, it's good, if not, it's bad.
Some things work. Some don't. But I don't know until I try them, or somebody I trust tries them. And even then I can't assume that their parameters match mine.
I think some of you are deluding yourselves, that if you see somebody with different kinds of gear, you assume that that person is somehow inferior to you. Often that is true, but guess what? There are some of us out there who have a couple hundred thousand rounds through a regular pump shotgun, who do have weird groovy guns that we are playing with, and if you don't think we can shoot them, we are more than willing to compete against you.
357wheelgunner, I'm going to pick on you for a minute. And this isn't personal. I also commented on your thread in rifles where you talked about the single 3gun match that you watched and used to make broad assumptions about. If I recall correctly you had a whole bunch of guys who are addicted to 3gun take you to task. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that I've either shot in, SOed, designed, run, or watched more 3gun competitions in the last week than you have in your life. Beware the assumptions that you are making. Just because a couple of guys with the bling can't shoot, don't assume that the rest of us can't.
I use a vertical foregrip on my rifle, and a really goofy looking shotgun. Perhaps I'm just a weenie gamer?
I'm going to put an M4 collapsible on one of my goofy shotguns. After I put four or five thousand rounds through it, I'll be sure to let you guys know my opinion. I figure at that point I'll know what I'm talking about.sm
member
I can do grey
< hiding behind Correia>
Yeah-and ya'll quit picking on me for liking to lob slugs at paint cans with a .410...
Why I'm here to tell ya the 20 single shot I use sometimes has a "black" wood stock on it even.
I can do gray - being as I am a Southern Boy and always been a Rebel.
Tool for the task. Some tools are better suited to the task and FIT the shooter better. My contention has always been to learn the Correct Basic Fundamentals with a firearm, and continue to practice these Basic Correct Fundamentals.
THEN - if you need to add something to the firearm, learn to use for instance a Surefire - with the correct basics down, the stamina built up, one can better transiton to the "improved" tool for task. Kind of like crawl - walk - run.
For ME and the tasks I do, I have put "a few" shotgun rds downrange. I can do different configurations, Just for me the basic set up allows me the greatest versatility.
Heck I can run a black, or camo synthetic stocked shotgun...with a saddle and headlight...
I mean in the South we grew up doing this with single shots from a moving p/u truck...<oops> .
One can even hit moving clays with a AR ...granted not the task designed for...but it can be done...
Stationary clays...well when the Ammo Supplied is bad, and makes no matter if pump or semi, tricked out or basic - 'cause everyone else's gun is not runnig because of bad primers...
Forget the shotgun, I literally "ditched it" - used a BHP to shoot the stationary clays ...
The "rule" was - hit all targets on the stage. RO never said it HAD to be done with a Shotgun - just "all targets must be dead".
" I wondered why you asked if you could use 2 sidearms...never seen anyone use a BHP as a BUG to a 1911 ...".
< hiding behind Correia>
Yeah-and ya'll quit picking on me for liking to lob slugs at paint cans with a .410...
Why I'm here to tell ya the 20 single shot I use sometimes has a "black" wood stock on it even.
I can do gray - being as I am a Southern Boy and always been a Rebel.
Tool for the task. Some tools are better suited to the task and FIT the shooter better. My contention has always been to learn the Correct Basic Fundamentals with a firearm, and continue to practice these Basic Correct Fundamentals.
THEN - if you need to add something to the firearm, learn to use for instance a Surefire - with the correct basics down, the stamina built up, one can better transiton to the "improved" tool for task. Kind of like crawl - walk - run.
For ME and the tasks I do, I have put "a few" shotgun rds downrange. I can do different configurations, Just for me the basic set up allows me the greatest versatility.
Heck I can run a black, or camo synthetic stocked shotgun...with a saddle and headlight...
I mean in the South we grew up doing this with single shots from a moving p/u truck...<oops> .
One can even hit moving clays with a AR ...granted not the task designed for...but it can be done...
Stationary clays...well when the Ammo Supplied is bad, and makes no matter if pump or semi, tricked out or basic - 'cause everyone else's gun is not runnig because of bad primers...
Forget the shotgun, I literally "ditched it" - used a BHP to shoot the stationary clays ...
The "rule" was - hit all targets on the stage. RO never said it HAD to be done with a Shotgun - just "all targets must be dead".
" I wondered why you asked if you could use 2 sidearms...never seen anyone use a BHP as a BUG to a 1911 ...".
scout26
Member
Correia,
I fall more into the "if it's stupid but it works, then it ain't stupid" line of thinking.
I think that part of the problem is that some people think that they can buy experience/practice/accuracy/competence by purchasing and playing with the doodad's.
I have no problems with innovations that improve or increase the functionality of a tool. I don't look down my nose at anyone.
I never judge a book by it's cover. The proof is in the (pudding) shooting.
I fall more into the "if it's stupid but it works, then it ain't stupid" line of thinking.
I think that part of the problem is that some people think that they can buy experience/practice/accuracy/competence by purchasing and playing with the doodad's.
I have no problems with innovations that improve or increase the functionality of a tool. I don't look down my nose at anyone.
I never judge a book by it's cover. The proof is in the (pudding) shooting.
No_Brakes23
Member
Huh?
Today I tried a 18" CavArms SST-870 equipped 870 with lots of goodies on it, and it was FAR more nimble than my 28" barrel stock 870. If anything swings like a plank it is the stock 870, and that standard grip is just a big ole PITA. I'll take a true PG (Only with a stock I can shoulder, of course,) over a trad stock anyday.Smoke
Member
Come now....
Shotguns are amzing destructive devices that will kill anyhting and you don't even have to aim. While AR''s shoot little bitty teeny tiny pills that won't stop a rodent....
No wait, that's not it.....
SHotguns have no range and are bulky to carry and the ammo weighs too much, while AR's are capable of warding off large riots while you hide safely a 1/2 mile away,
No, that's not it either......
Shotguns won't stop reliably and have an over penetration issue in drywall. An AR will punch through a Level II vest but won't penetrate a typical 2x4 and sheetrock wall.
Wait.....I think I've got it.....
Each is a different tool with a purpose, choose the right tool for the job.
Smoke
Shotguns are amzing destructive devices that will kill anyhting and you don't even have to aim. While AR''s shoot little bitty teeny tiny pills that won't stop a rodent....
No wait, that's not it.....
SHotguns have no range and are bulky to carry and the ammo weighs too much, while AR's are capable of warding off large riots while you hide safely a 1/2 mile away,
No, that's not it either......
Shotguns won't stop reliably and have an over penetration issue in drywall. An AR will punch through a Level II vest but won't penetrate a typical 2x4 and sheetrock wall.
Wait.....I think I've got it.....
Each is a different tool with a purpose, choose the right tool for the job.
Smoke
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