Real ID. Senate goes for it tomorrow, Tues 10th.

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Fighting technology is banging your head against the wall. Fighting to keep the technology used in an inoffensive manner might be effective.

All fine, but I guarantee you that race or religion as examples will not be recorded. The issue is that gun ownwership is proposed as important to know. It is only important to know for the purpose of discrimination, other tendentious rhetoric notwithstanding.

BTW, I am a retired database and application designer. Many potential applications are recognized after the data is already collected.
 
I'm amazed at the number of people even here who can either not see an issue or even defend this. And the claim we have long had a NID is such an oft repeated bit of misrepresentation I don't know what to think. Do people actually believe that? Do they not recognize the differences?

I don't have to have any ID on me right now. I never have been forced to. Neither have any of you in your daily civilian lives. If I do have an ID it can be any of a variety of items and be perfectly acceptable. Any state DL is acceptable anywhere else even without standardization so the logic of standardization would be? Especially in light of the governmental refusal to enforce ID, licenses and deportation of Illegals?

And this has nothing to do with fighting technology. Just because technology exists does not mean it needs to be applied everywhere possible, nor does opposing certain applications mean one opposes technology. Nor does the fact this legislation does not immediately, specifically require a certain national ID to be on-person at all times mean this is not a National ID effort or that opposing it is opposing tech or wearing tinfoil(though not opposing certainly begs the question of whether someone has their head buried in the sand).

This is just another step. Not even a first but actually nearly a last one. It's another piece of the puzzle in that advancing police state issue centac is arguing doesn't exist in another thread. Accept it, believe it and then find a way to deal with it.
 
Well, let's just hope that this won't be abused... the gov't wouldn't abuse an incredible amount of power, right?
 
insurgent said:
Well, except they specifically shot down a proposed provision that would have prevented the RealID database from being used as a national database of gun owners.

I'm trying to find who voted for/against that specific provision, can anyone help me out?
 
Igloodude,

I know you already recieved a reply on TFL, but the questions you're asking should be answered in the links I provided in my previous post on this thread.
 
This is just another step. Not even a first but actually nearly a last one. It's another piece of the puzzle in that advancing police state issue centac is arguing doesn't exist in another thread. Accept it, believe it and then find a way to deal with it.
Ok, it is another step. What are you doing about it? What is your plan to stop the great big conspiracy theory of complete New World Order? That is the thing that cracks me up about conspiracy theorists. There are all these gloom and doom predictions, but what is the point? It seems that the only reason some of this comes up is as a means of validating some people's personal self-worth. They talk about conspiracy theories and how this is going to happen and how that is going to happen and how they see it all coming! Yet, if you take them for their word on these things, it really boils down to that the powers to be are so powerful that they can make all of these things happen with so much control, what can you honestly do to stop them? Nothing. So if I am to buy into all of this conspiracy theory, I am also accepting that the government and the real people that control the government are so powerful, there is nothing we can do to stop them. So the conspiracy theorist really just want to talk about their theories as a means of showing how smart they are and how they know what is going to happen as the now famous "sheeple" continue to live in lives of enslavement and naivity.

My response? Why worry then? If we are screwed, then we are screwed. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I have some grass to go eat and I have a wool shaving appointment after school.
 
H.R. 418 [the Real ID Act of 2005] would provide additional waiver authority over laws that might impede the expeditious construction of barriers and roads along the border. H.R. 418 would require the Secretary of Homeland Security to waive any and all laws that he determines necessary, in his sole discretion, to ensure the expeditious construction of barriers and roads under IIRIRA § 102...

Section 102 of H.R. 418 would amend the current provision to require the Secretary of Homeland Security to waive any law upon determining that a waiver is necessary for the expeditious construction of the border barriers. Additionally, it would prohibit judicial review of a waiver decision or action by the Secretary and bar judicially ordered compensation or injunction or other remedy for damages alleged to result from any such decision or action...


So if judicial review is the basic mechanism that enables the Federal court system—from the Supreme Court on down—to rule on the constitutionality of laws and government actions, then how could it be possible for Congress to pass a law that includes language prohibiting judicial review for the law in question? In other words, if Congress could somehow exempt a law from judicial review, then the principle of judicial review would be completely gutted because they could just exempt from judicial review any law they wanted to, even if that law is blatantly unconstitutional or it violates basic human rights. Surely this isn't possible?

copy/pasted from
 
"Yet, if you take them for their word on these things, it really boils down to that the powers to be are so powerful that they can make all of these things happen with so much control, what can you honestly do to stop them?"

People leave California and other anti-firearm states specifically because of their rules. As long as there is still freedom to relocate you're not living in a sci-fi movie. Whether you'd be allowed to take your wealth with you, that's questionable.

Remember that thread where they're bribing Atlanic City residents to snitch on each other for firearms ownership? LOl just a funny thought, but how much do you think they'd offer, or more to the point how much would people require, to snitch on each other for ID card infractions? $100? $50?

"Psst, I don't think Jimmy Lang has his ID card anymore. So i get the money now?"
later that day
"Mr. Lang? Of 312 Birkenstock Rd.? Please show us your ID. Failure to comply is tantamount to..."
 
Wow, some real stretches here:
LOl just a funny thought, but how much do you think they'd offer, or more to the point how much would people require, to snitch on each other for ID card infractions? $100? $50?

I submit that all you conspiracy theorists out there cannot see the forest for the trees. The central argument seems to be that latest technology makes it not only easier for the government to control citizens, but also makes it inevitable. What you are not seeing is that, with all the technological advances, government will not be able to control the technology. Advocates for privacy will win out in the end, for a couple of reasons (1) our form of government will not be completely corrupted, and (2) constantly evolving and emerging technology will continue to keep what government does visible to its citizenry ...
 
Old Dog, I'll agree with you on the second point that we'll always be able to see into what the government does... to a point. What about their disconnected from the civilain Web internet? How exactly do we see that? There are no hardlines from this internet to that one.

You have more belief in our government than I do to think that the majority won't be corrupt after a while. Too many people are simply power hungry.
 
Ok, it is another step.

I'm unsure if that is sarcasm or an admission.

What are you doing about it?

People keep asking that. I keep telling. people keep accusing me of tooting my own horn. So suffice to say everything I can that I think of that probably won't get me immediately arrested and thus render me utterly useless.

What is your plan to stop the great big conspiracy theory of complete New World Order?

And there we go. That's it. Dialog over. Some people just can't have a discussion without immediately trying to bias things towards their own perceptions.

There is no conspiracy theory. The "New World order" is nothing more than the eventual outcome of advancing technology and human nature/greed IF we do nothing to control it. There's nothing conspiratorial about that. Power congeals and the most amoral pursue it. When some new whatsit comes along that makes controlling the herd easier they utilize it.

My plan to stop it? I have no plan. Can it be stopped? How many powerful nations in history have avoided eventual collapse? How many power grabs by wealthy elites(or wannabe wealthy elites) have been "stopped" as opposed to sort of just falling apart? In the meantime I'll make a lot of noise and part of that noise includes posts like this one, when people, for good motives or bad, throw around conspiracy and paranoia and tin foil labels. That's not what it's about and when people get past the labels the staunchest defenders of what appears to be the "status quo" often become its loudest detractors. Been there, done that.

That is the thing that cracks me up about conspiracy theorists. There are all these gloom and doom predictions but what is the point...

If you're stuck on conspiracy and can't see beyond your own definition of paranoia then, yeah, might as well curl up in a ball with a beer and a ball game. If you actually take the time to look at what's really going on then trying to make a difference makes sense, even if it does seem overwhelming at times.

Yet, if you take them for their word ... what can you honestly do to stop them? Nothing.

Horse-feathers. There is no conspiracy. There's just technology and mankind's nature. That nature likes playing with all the new toys and it can't help but see how they can be used for another aspect of man's nature: Making money and gaining power and telling other people what to do. You can beat that...unless you refuse to accept it even exists.

So if I am to buy into all of this conspiracy theory, I am also accepting that the government and the real people that control the government are so powerful, there is nothing we can do to stop them.

You're words. Based on your views and concepts. Nobody really thinks these things can't be beaten. They are just people and technology and instinct and all it takes is enough people who oppose them, and aren't being undercut by other people who insist it's all black and white and conspiritorial, to gradually even things out. Problem is for too damn long most people have been quiet and happy with their paycheck and cable TV and those of us who aren't quiet have to keep spending our time arguing with you other ones that aren't quiet but think we're nuts. Quit it, dangnabit.

My response? Why worry then? If we are screwed, then we are screwed. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I have some grass to go eat and I have a wool shaving appointment after school.

Stop it, you're frightening the billy goats.

EDIT: I thought of something while in the john(yeah, my best thinking and all that), I want to summarize the above rant a little better so there's no mistaking what my long-winded self is trying to say.

I don't believe in Conspiracy Theories. I believe that it's all just some people doing what some percentage of people do by nature. I believe whether they succeed or fail is entirely dependent on what good, moral people do. If they sit back and ignore it, or let other things distract them then, yeah, Bad wins. If they, the "good guys" stand together then bad loses, because bad seldom has the numerical advantage and is usually too stupid and/or lazy to mount a good conspiracy anyway. And lastly I believe that one of the best things "bad" can hope for along its road to possible victory is that people like us will sit around and argue about if they exist, what they are doing and whether one of us is a conspiracy nut and the other is just plain nuts. Division is the best technology they got.

The short Cliff's Notes version any better?
 
I don't know that I want to be tagged a conspiracy theorist on a gun forum if I was tipped off in Februrary by GOA, warning of where such a law may take us.

This was received as the bill came up in the House. It has since passed, of course.

National ID Cards Coming Up For A Vote This Week
-- Threats to gun owners' privacy are a huge concern

Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert
8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408
http://www.gunowners.org

Wednesday, February 9, 2005


The National ID card is back in the news, as Congress is getting set
once again to debate the issue.

You will remember that late last year, Congress passed (and the
President signed) legislation which starts us down the road to a
National ID card. In the name of preventing alien terrorists from
operating in this country, the so-called Intelligence Reform bill
gave federal bureaucrats unprecedented new powers to force changes in
state-issued driver's licenses -- including, possibly, the addition
of computer chip technology that can facilitate the tracking of all
U.S. citizens.

Now, the House will be debating new legislation, H.R. 418, that was
recently introduced by Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI). In
considering this bill, the U.S. House will vote on whether to empower
the federal government to determine who can get a driver's license --
and under what conditions.

Since you need a driver's license to purchase a gun from a dealer,
this will give BATFE the expanded ability to impose even greater
forms of gun control -- something which it has long coveted. This
will become even more apparent if an anti-gun Democrat like Hillary
Clinton wins the presidency in 2008.

H.R. 418 is, unfortunately, supported by many Republicans who believe
that repealing our liberties will somehow make us "secure."
But GOA
joined a large coalition of citizen-activist organizations this week
in opposition to H.R. 418. In a letter to Congress, the coalition
stated:

"Standardization of driver's licenses has long been recognized as a
bureaucratic back-door to implementation of a national ID card. With
its required linking of databases and ability of the Secretary of
Homeland Security to require a prescribed format, HR 418 takes us
well along that road. Concerns are further heightened when the bill
fails to even provide lip service to privacy concerns, and proposes
to share all of our data on the driver's license database with Canada
and Mexico."

Realizing government's tendency towards mission creep, no one should
be surprised if this database grows to contain far more information
than that which is relevant to driving. HR 418 requires that the
database shall contain "at a minimum," all information contained on
the driver's license as well as driving history. There is no limit to
what other information may eventually be contained in the database --
something which should definitely concern gun owners.

H.R. 418 is being touted as a way of cleaning up some of the problems
with the law that was enacted last December. But this bill is still
an attack on states' rights. It still takes us down the road to a
National ID card. And it would still do nothing to keep real
terrorists from operating in our country.

ACTION: Please contact your Representative and urge him or her to
oppose H.R. 418. You can use the pre-written message below and send
it as an e-mail by visiting the GOA Legislative Action Center at
http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm (where phone and fax numbers
are also available).

-----Pre-written letter-----

Dear Representative:

H.R. 418 would give the federal government open-ended authority to
determine who may and may not get a driver's license -- and under
what circumstances.

Since I need a driver's license to purchase a gun from a dealer,
BATFE would finally have its long-coveted tool to impose gun control
on targeted groups -- particularly under a liberal anti-gun
administration.

If you believe in the Second Amendment, please vote against this
anti-gun monstrosity.

Sincerely,
 
Do you guys who support this bill really want the DHS to be exempt from Judicial review?

I sure do NOT!

Good summary

So if judicial review is the basic mechanism that enables the Federal court system—from the Supreme Court on down—to rule on the constitutionality of laws and government actions, then how could it be possible for Congress to pass a law that includes language prohibiting judicial review for the law in question? In other words, if Congress could somehow exempt a law from judicial review, then the principle of judicial review would be completely gutted because they could just exempt from judicial review any law they wanted to, even if that law is blatantly unconstitutional or it violates basic human rights. Surely this isn't possible?
Congress has crafted a completely unprecedented provision that guts the principle of judicial review by granting the DHS secretary complete and total immunity from the courts when it comes to the construction of "barriers and roads" in this one specific geographical region, and they've buried this provision inside a national ID card act which is itself attached to a large military appropriations bill that no Congressperson in their right mind would vote against (money for the troops and all that).

Disclaimer: I'm 51% Libertarian / 49% Republican (the small-government version), so this may affect my opinion slightly :)
 
Horse-feathers. There is no conspiracy.
Then why are you worried? This bill is just a bill that will standardize the state driver's licenses and it is not a step towards a national ID system. Right? You can't have it be both ways. Either this is just one isolated incident and not a conspiracy to subject us to more government control or it is the first step towards the national ID system and the planned gun database. You see, there is a conspiracy theory going around. You just don't want to admit to it. Either this is what it is or it is a step towards their eventual plan of creating a national ID system and gun owner database. Which is it? And who has made the connection between these two events? It wouldn't be the paranoid anti-government types that often come up with compelx conspiracy theories would it? Nah.

Section 102 of H.R. 418 would amend the current provision to require the Secretary of Homeland Security to waive any law upon determining that a waiver is necessary for the expeditious construction of the border barriers. Additionally, it would prohibit judicial review of a waiver decision or action by the Secretary and bar judicially ordered compensation or injunction or other remedy for damages alleged to result from any such decision or action...
This is probably the best part of this whole bill. Lets see this one not make it to the Supreme Court and lets see the Supreme Court give up its judicial review powers. This is the built in self-destruct mechanism right here. It won't stand up to judicial review. The Congress does not have the power to do this. Sorry.

And actually I was just reading the whole bill, this section 102 does not apply to the ID section which starts at section 201. Wow, I think I forgot how much total garbage our congresscritters sneak into legislation. HR 418 has already gone through the house hasn't it? Contacting my Senators is a waste of time, but contacting my Congressman might be worth it. So answer me this, has HR 418 passed through Congress yet? Nevermind, my Congresscritter sponsored it. But of course he would so he could increase his congressional power. Gotta love it.
 
It appears we just have a different definition of conspiracy theory then. To me, when I look at past government consolidations of power and sneaky manipulations for control it's not conspiracy to expect the same from legislation that looks just like past efforts. And i don't share your faith in judicial review. The Incumbent Protection Act survived, didn't it?
 
Old Dog and anyone else who might be interested:

Re H.R. 418, from which the DL rider attached to Emergency Military Spending came, did you happen to take notice of the very broad powers granted to The Secretary of Homeland Security, whomever that worthy might be at any given time? If you didn't, look at it.

So far as I know, H.R. 418 lies in Senate Judiciary Committee, where who knows what might happen. Othwerwise, your privacy and other things sseem to have bdeen offered up as sacrifices to the graven image of Rep. Sensenbrenners ruffeled feathers, which strikes me as one hellish way to do THE PEOPLE'S BUSINESS. What do I know though?
 
Just wait till you have to go in and renew your license...

What a bureaucratic nightmare. The clerks at the DMV will have to call and verify your four forms of ID. What a mess....Wanna bet they don't get this online in 3 years? Did anyone in the Senate bother to read this before they voted for it???
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...58B2A22A1E32DDA586256FFF00131D81?OpenDocument
'Real ID' has states scrambling
By Elisa Crouch
Of the Post-Dispatch
05/11/2005


People impatient with long waits at drivers license bureaus had better brace themselves for even longer ones.

President George W. Bush signed legislation Wednesday aimed at denying drivers licenses to illegal immigrants and increasing homeland security. But some Missouri and Illinois officials predict it will create bigger headaches for motorists.

The Real ID Act, which takes effect in three years, will turn drivers licenses into national identification cards. To renew a license or get a new one, motorists will have to prove their identification and residency in four ways. Even then, state workers will have to contact the issuing agencies to make sure the documents are valid before handing the motorist a license.

The renewal process in Missouri and Illinois involves surrendering the old license, and sometimes showing a Social Security card if there's a name change. The new legislation means drivers will have to prove their name and date of birth, probably by showing a birth certificate. Applicants also will have to show proof of citizenship, a Social Security number and proof of residence, such as the street address on a utility bill.
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States will have to keep the information for 10 years and join a computer network that shares the information. Supporters of the bill estimate it will cost states and counties about $100 million over five years.

State workers can verify Social Security numbers on a computer network, but there is no national database for county birth records.

"The bill has kind of caught the local people by surprise," said Mark Von Nida, the Madison County clerk, who oversees birth records. "Everybody's scrambling to catch up with what's happening."

The Illinois secretary of state's office established a committee to research how the bill will affect it and the 136 drivers license offices it oversees statewide, said Dave Druker, a spokesman for Secretary of State Jesse White.

"We're undoubtedly going to have to expand to include the county clerks from around the state of Illinois," Druker said. "Some situations, there really aren't answers for right now. Where we see problems is that this is an unfunded mandate."

Some county officials in both states say they're waiting to take their state's lead.

The Missouri Department of Revenue oversees the 182 drivers license offices in the state. It is holding internal discussions on the requirements and how to fulfill them, said spokeswoman Maura Browning.

Among other things, states must work out staffing issues, how to verify birth records from foreign countries and how to verify addresses to prove residency.

Now that Bush has signed the bill, Browning said, state officials will speed up discussions on how to implement the measure.

The Real ID Act was folded into a $82 billion emergency spending bill to fund military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, provide relief to tsunami victims in Asia and beef up border security. Both houses of Congress have approved it.

Supporters say the Real ID provision will make the nation safer. Some of the hijackers on Sept. 11 used drivers licenses to board planes, even though their visas were expired.

"This legislation mandates important steps that will force all the states to step up the issuance of tamper-proof licenses," Sen. Christopher "Kit" Bond, R-Mo., said in a statement Wednesday. "It will make it more difficult for illegal immigrants to get IDs and most importantly, it will make it harder for terrorists to fake their identification and blend into society while they plan their crimes."

Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Illinois, said the license measures became part of a bill that had to be rushed through, which is why it won unanimous approval.

"I wanted to debate this," he said, but no hearings were held.

Durbin called the requirements "burdensome" for some people, especially legal immigrants from countries where birth certificates aren't issued, or from places such as Yugoslavia that no longer exist. He predicted that long lines will result and that states will have to cough up millions of dollars.

The legislation does not specify whether a motorist would need a certified copy of a birth certificate. Missouri counties charge $15 for a certified copy from anywhere in the state. They are only available for people born in 1920 or later.

The costs in Illinois vary from county to county. And residents can only get a copy from the county in which they were born.

"They'll have to establish some standards about how to do it," Durbin said. "If you live at home and have a utility bill in the name of your father, and you're the daughter, is that good enough?"

If states can't meet the federal requirements, it's possible that drivers licenses from those states won't be recognized by the federal government. For example, the licenses could not be used to board a commercial flight or enter a federally protected building.

Illinois issues between 2.1 million and 2.2 million drivers licenses each year, and has about 8.5 million in circulation, Druker said. Missouri has 4.2 million active licenses. Browning was uncertain how many the state issues each year.

What's required now in Illinois, Missouri

Illinois drivers licenses must be renewed every four years. To renew, motorists must surrender their old licenses. Social Security cards are required when there's a change in a name or an initial.

New Illinois drivers must provide a certified copy of a birth certificate, something listing an Illinois address, proof of signature and a Social Security card. Only the Social Security number is verified.

Missouri drivers are good for two to six years, depending on the driver's age. The old license is required for renewal, and sometimes a Social Security card if there's a discrepancy.

New Missouri drivers need to provide a Social Security card and out-of-state drivers license.


Reporter Elisa Crouch
E-mail: [email protected]
Phone: 314-340-8119
 
Did anyone in the Senate bother to read this before they voted for it???
Of course not. Congress-critters don't have time to read the actual legislation they vote on. They are FAR too busy being wined & dined by PAC operatives and chasing the cute interns to be bothered reading the laws they will impose on us revenue generating units.
 
If this is just standardizing drivers licenses then why do I need to prove anything other than the fact that I can drive?

Also why was congress so fanatical about passing it and spending so much of our money on it if it was no big deal.

I am also not against technology. I love technology. I just do not like it used against non-convicted criminals. I do not care if it is pointed stick technology, camera technology, or database technology.

Also how do people that do not have SSN get drivers licenses now? Tjis is a serious question because I know seveal people that do not have them.
 
Quote:
Section 102 of H.R. 418 would amend the current provision to require the Secretary of Homeland Security to waive any law upon determining that a waiver is necessary for the expeditious construction of the border barriers. Additionally, it would prohibit judicial review of a waiver decision or action by the Secretary and bar judicially ordered compensation or injunction or other remedy for damages alleged to result from any such decision or action...

This is probably the best part of this whole bill. Lets see this one not make it to the Supreme Court and lets see the Supreme Court give up its judicial review powers. This is the built in self-destruct mechanism right here. It won't stand up to judicial review. The Congress does not have the power to do this. Sorry.

Although I think the scope should be clearly stated so that it can't be readily expanded, I believe this power is just to keep the Greens from getting in the way with lawsuits to stop expeditious building of border barriers. No jurisdiction...no lawsuit. My understanding is that Congress DOES have the power to determine jurisdiction of lower courts.
 
Quote:
Did anyone in the Senate bother to read this before they voted for it???
Of course not. Congress-critters don't have time to read the actual legislation they vote on. They are FAR too busy being wined & dined by PAC operatives and chasing the cute interns to be bothered reading the laws they will impose on us revenue generating units.

All they have to do is attend the party caucus meeting and be told how to vote. If they have a question, then they can read what they want to. Let's hope that collectively it all gets proper scrutiny. They are still accountable for their individual votes.
 
Uhoh, looks like the Freemasons, Space aliens, the Rothchilds, Elvis, and JFK have gotten together to produce the biggest conspiracy theory yet to get the tin hatters in a tizzy :neener:
 
Also how do people that do not have SSN get drivers licenses now? Tjis is a serious question because I know seveal people that do not have them.

SSN isn't relevant to current regulations. All it demonstrates is that someone of that name MAY BE reporting taxable income from a legitimate employer or MAY BE self employed. What it really does is assign a unique number to each person, something an indexed database would really require.
 
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