you draw your weapon, they run away...

For me, this is completely theoretical as the people's republic of Maryland doesn't trust its subjects to carry firearms, but I definitely think you should call the cops ASAP for all the reasons already mentioned.

Ayoob writes in a very dramatic style that is quite captivating. It's when he's mistaken for an expert that he becomes dangerous.....

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I haven't read any of his books, but a story I heard about him makes me wonder about his credibility. It was on another board, so take it with as much salt as you want. The poster said Ayoob was invited to a local 3-gun match to speak. He also decided to enter the competition and carried himself like the expert a lot of people think he is. Apparently, he had an ND while waiting to shoot a stage and tried to play it off like he didn't know who fired the round. He was then, not so kindly, asked to leave.

Not to jack the thread too much more, but what exactly are Ayoob's credentials? As any gun rag will show you, getting paid to write about something doesn't make a person an expert on them. What exactly has he done to make him an expert?

Soccer Moms With Cell Phones

with cameras and tourists doing video taping and kids making home movies. :banghead: We used to say you could be in Central Park in the middle of a blinding snowstorm drinking your coffee and someone will stroll up and ask a question. Now they all have cameras and they're bored.

How can they run away when they are down? I would not pull a weapon unless I was going to use it.

Criminals have OFTEN been known to turn and run simply from seeing you reach for a weapon. If their back is turned and they are fleeing by the time you have a sight picture, you can't shoot them in the back.

This is why 0.9% (iirc) of defensive uses of a firearm involve firing shots... statistically I believe you have a less than 1% chance of firing shots even in the event that you reach for your weapon.

...Which is another reason why this thread is so pertinent.

BG's accusing defenders of being armed maniacs is common...

LONG story short,

A good friend had to draw on a jerk who was beating a woman with a pipe in a parking lot. The perp stopped beating the woman to go after him instead.

Friend retreats and eventually draws, perp stops in his tracks, cops show up, take everyone into custody.

Cops know who's who right away: My friend was the one worried about the unconcious, bloody woman hidden between the two parked cars, while the perp was the one worried about the "armed maniac who started waving his gun around, he didn't do nothing, just minding his own business".


When the woman came to in the hospital, it turned out that the perp was the victim's boyfriend, but she verified my friend's story. The cops mentioned that this was a) rare, as the victims usually back up the beater and b) saved him a lot of potential trouble.

Assuming you're not in immediate, life-threatening jeopardy (and in this scenario you aren't), I'd draw my cell phone first and call 911. If that didn't stop them, then I'd shout (so the 911 operator could hear me) "Please stand back. I'm armed!"

I'd have it down on tape that I FIRST called the police, THEN warned them, and only THEN, if they persisted did I draw a weapon.

This thread is starting to scare me. I need to respond to a few things.

There's a major legal issue here. You're only supposed to exercise lethal force if you're in imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious injury. If you draw your gun, by definition you are in the process of exercising lethal force - even if you never fire a shot.

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And...

How can they run away when they are down? I would not pull a weapon unless I was going to use it.

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These statements are just wrong! Drawing or revealing your firearm is not "exercising lethal force"; it is putting yourself in a position where you are prepared to do so quickly, if necessary. It would likely also constitute assault in most jurisdictions (assault, in layman's terms, means to threaten someone with physical force). By drawing your firearm, you are certainly letting them know that you are capable of exercising lethal force, and presumably that you are willing to do so. It is no guaranty that you will, however. More importantly, there is nothing illegal about it if you reasonably appehend that someone intends to do you serious harm, and has the capability to do so quickly. In other words, threatening the use of force by, for example, drawing your firearm, is a legally justified assault and is therefore not illegal if you reasonably believe that it is necessary to deter or prevent an attack upon yourself.

The legal term for actually using force against someone is "battery." Unless and until you point the muzzle in their direction and pull the trigger, you have not engaged in an intentional act that is reasonably expected to result in injury to them, and therefore have not committed a battery. Merely preparing to use force, as in drawing your firearm and bringing it to the ready, is not a battery.

In many situations, the reasonable and prudent thing to do is to draw your firearm well BEFORE the time comes that you know you need to shoot. The display of the firearm may well cause the BGs to rethink their plans and flee. Or it may cause them to reach for firearms, in which case the advantage is yours because you already have it out and at the ready. In addition, the BG's act of producing a weapon gives you much more of a legal and ethical basis on which to use lethal force, making it much easier to defend your actions.

Most importantly, if you wait until you know you need to shoot, it will often be too late. When the BG has a gun out and pointed at you, or a knife at your throat, it's a little too late to be trying to draw your weapon.

I'm an attorney (licensed in three states and a dozen federal courts), and I know a little something about these matters. In addition, my brother is an LEO (Georgia). Trust me on this one -- there is nothing illegal about drawing your firearm when you reasonably apprehend that someone intends you serious harm. You don't have to use it. The law prefers that you not use it. If you can avoid violence by displaying your weapon, you should.

Finally, I'd like to encourage as many people as possible to call the police in these situations for one reason not discussed above -- data. There is a lot of debate about defensive use of firearms. Proponents like us struggle to convince the hoplophobes that firearms in the hands of private citizens are used to prevent crime far more often than they are used to commit crime. The problem is that there is little data to support the claim, because most defensive gun uses are never reported. The FBI collects statistics on defensive gun use, but the numbers are probably a lot lower than they should be because so few people bother to report it unless they actually had to shoot someone. If you deter or stop a crime with your firearm, even if you never fired a shot, please report it. It will help all of us in the long run.

Drawing or revealing your firearm is not "exercising lethal force";

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I disagree. In Pa. it is considered lethal force. It is certainly a "substantial step" which would justify an ADW charge, in the absence of justification. In this scenario my justificatin in drawing is based on the my belief that the BGs have the ability to harm me, the opportunity to harm me, and have taken a substantial step toward harming me. I am now justified in using lethal force to stop the threat. I do not need to wait for the actual act. They have demonstrated their intent to inflict lethal force on me, and I may defend myself.

I was taught that the law is a two edged sword that cuts both ways. A substantial step is considered to be the actual action, no matter who does it. Drawing a weapon is the substantial step that makes it lethal force.

The point I got from Preacherman is that drawing is a serious step towards using lethal force, if not considered lethal force in your state. You better be able to articulate justifying circumstances before you draw. Arguing that drawing is not lethal force would in my mind, take away the justification in your use of force when someone points a weapon at you because, they haven't actually fired.

Lets remember that each state writes it's own law with its own nuance, and although they are usually similar, the devil is in the details. Sometimes the absence of one word, such as "reasonable" can make a tremendous difference. In my state that word is absent in discussing "state of mind" in justification for use of force. I will be judged on what I believed, not what a reasonable person would be expected to believe.

The legal term for actually using force against someone is "battery." Unless and until you point the muzzle in their direction and pull the trigger, you have not engaged in an intentional act that is reasonably expected to result in injury to them, and therefore have not committed a battery. Merely preparing to use force, as in drawing your firearm and bringing it to the ready, is not a battery.

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Not sure in what 3 states you're an attorney, but in California and many other states, displaying a weapon in a rude or threatening manner is a felony. In other words, if you're not justified in using it, you probably won't be justified in drawing it. Obviously it will be better if they throw their hands up when you draw, but the elements needed are the same.

I doubt there's many states that allow you to point your gun at someone, "just in case".......

And battery is the physical unlawful touching of someone. Assault is the attempt. If I swing and miss, I'm still committing assault.

We may be saying the same thing in different ways. My point is that there may be plenty of situations where you are legally justified in drawing your weapon, and yet should not actually shoot anyone. As you correctly point out, drawing your weapon without legal justification can constitute the crime of assault with a deadly weapon (ADW), if you put someone else in reasonable fear that you intend to use it against them. Of course, if you are drawing it in order to deter or prevent someone from attacking you because you reasonably believe that they will attack and seriously injury you unless you draw it, then you are legally justified in doing so and have not committed any crime.

There are some people in this thread that have suggested that you can never draw or reveal your weapon unless and until you are legally justified in shooting someone with it. That's not the case. You can use a weapon to threaten deadly force in order to deter someone from attacking you. Indeed, if you have an opportunity to do so, you should. The actual USE of deadly force, i.e., shooting someone, should only come after all other reasonable options have been exhausted.

...in California and many other states, displaying a weapon in a rude or threatening manner is a felony. In other words, if you're not justified in using it, you probably won't be justified in drawing it.

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Absolutely right, amd I don't disagree with you. My point is that you don't HAVE to use it just because you've drawn it. Some posts above have suggested that you should only draw if you intend to actually shoot the BG, i.e., the "they run away" scenario is irrelevant because it will never happen. My point is that you should only draw when you are legally justified in doing so, but drawing the weapon may itself be a sufficient deterrent. If so, you don't need to shoot and shouldn't shoot.

Let's take an example. You are walking to your car in a parking garage. As you approach, you spot someone leaning against it and staring right at you. You know what that look means. He looks beyond you and nods at someone. You glance over your shoulder and realize that two more figures are behind you and walking toward you. They were apparently waiting near the stairway you came out of. One is holding a baseball bat, and the other appears to have a knife. You are alone with no route of escape.

The BGs, however, are still at least 50 feet away. Are you justified in shooting them at this point? No. While you could reasonably believe that they intend to do you serious bodily harm, and they have the capability to do so, the threat is not yet imminent. They need to close the distance and/or start moving much more rapidly.

You may well, however, be legally justified in drawing or revealing your weapon, and it may be prudent to do so. If they think they have a helpless victim, they will continue to close, perhaps until it is too late to do anything other than shoot them, and you may still get injured or killed in the process. By producing your weapon, you can cause them to halt and/or flee.

Sure, if they weren't intending you harm, they could press charges for assault with a deadly weapon. That's always a risk, just as you take the risk of being charged with murder when you shoot someone that you think is trying to kill you. The question will be whether you were justified in taking the actions you took, i.e., whether a reasonable person in the same situation would have acted as you did. If you reasonably believed that threatening the use of force was necessary to prevent the attack, you are o.k. in the eyes of the law.

We could play with the facts in the above scenario, and make up thousands more. The point, however, is that a firearm may be used defensively without actually shooting someone. You need to be careful about it, and always act reasonably, but the same is true of the decision about whether to pull the trigger.

That "reasonable" person is the clincher. If it goes bad for you, you won't be judged by your shooting buddies, but by 12 licensed drivers, most of whom, would probably never draw a gun at anybody. And since "bare fear" is a never a justification for deadly force, the advice to not draw it unless you could use it stands, IMHO.

I think you guys are overcomplicating it. You draw your weapon with the intention of using it to stop a threat. The threat must be imminent, unavoidable, and likely to result in great bodily harm to you or your death unless you stop it. Now, if something happens in the interim, after you draw, but before you fire, that de-escalates the threat, (the goblin runs away, for example), you re-holster and go on about your business. End of story.

The BGs, however, are still at least 50 feet away. Are you justified in shooting them at this point? No. While you could reasonably believe that they intend to do you serious bodily harm, and they have the capability to do so, the threat is not yet imminent. They need to close the distance and/or start moving much more rapidly.

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Unless those "BG's" are screaming at the top of their lungs that they plan on killing you, while running towards you, and there are witnesses to it, if you pull a gun in that scenario, you could very likely end up in jail.

Sorry Counselor, maybe you write a mean living trust, but I'd skip the criminal defense work if I were you.......

FKB is saying the exact same thing I was taught in my CCW class. RileyMC just wrote a very condensed version of the same (with the exception of calling the cops afterward).

In SC, they would both be fine. In the above garage situation, there is no law on this planet that would make me wait to draw until two or three armed assailants were within contact distance. As soon as I saw the two guys with the bat and the knife, my weapon would be out of its holster. And, the second the situation was resolved, with or without shooting, if I was still able, I'd be on the phone to 911.

We are indeed overcomplicating it. I've never drawn my pistol, and I hope I never have to. If I'm alert and smart, I won't.

My point is simply that presentation of a weapon may often be enough to end the threat. If it is, then you shouldn't be shooting anyone.

Moreover, a large contingent on this board appear to believe that there is a single line of demarcation. On one side, you are not justified in even revealing your weapon. On the other side, you are justified in shooting. Therefore, you cannot reveal until you are justified in shooting.

My point is that there are actually two lines, at least in some scenarios. When the first line is crossed, the GG is justified in revealing a weapon even when he may not yet be justified in using it. The very fact that a weapon is presented is not an unequivocal statement of intent to use it, and therefore does not constitute ADW. This is the "A No Emphasized" phase. You warn the BG to stop. He does not. A weapon at the ready can be very useful here. It is not an unconditional threat of lethal force -- it is a threat to use force if your order to stop is not complied with. Pointing it at the BG and saying "I'm gonna blow your head off" is an unconditional threat. Producing a weapon and making clear that you will use it to defend yourself, if necessary, is not.

Yes, you run some legal risk that your action will be perceived as unjustified. Still, "better judged by 12 than carried by six", as the cliche goes, and I'd much rather be explaining why I presented my weapon in the face of a perceived threat, but had the sense of mind not to use it, than I would be explaining why I shot someone.

Sure, the legally "safe" advice is to tell someone not to reveal his weapon until he is justified in shooting the attacker. That's not very helpful advice, however. Practically speaking, you can never know in advance when that point comes. Worse, it creates a mindset in which you may hesitate to produce your weapon until it is too late, and then be too quick to use it once you do produce it.

Sure, the legally "safe" advice is to tell someone not to reveal his weapon until he is justified in shooting the attacker. That's not very helpful advice, however. Practically speaking, you can never know in advance when that point comes. Worse, it creates a mindset in which you may hesitate to produce your weapon until it is too late, and then be too quick to use it once you do produce it.

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Unfortunately, that goes with the territory. If you hesisate at the wrong time, you could wind up dead. If you draw too soon, you could be charged with brandishing.

That's why I say in this situation (as described here), draw your cell phone first and call 911. Then warn (and make sure the 911 operator can hear you.) Then draw your gun.

draw your cell phone first and call 911. Then warn (and make sure the 911 operator can hear you.) Then draw your gun.

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I agree. Excellent advice.

You know, if I had reacted exactly as I was trained in any number of police firearms schools I have attended, I probably would have killed 30 or 40 people.

Civilian self defense training is the same.

Do what you feel is right. All I can tell you, is that drawing a firearm at someone who is 50 feet away, in a public place, merely because they have a bat or a knife in their hand, without a clear sign that they intend to attack you, is more than likely going to land you in jail. It's also unnecessary. Displaying a weapon at someone that far away without clear provocation could even be interpreted as you being the aggressor.

Even the oft quoted 21 foot rule, in reference to using deadly force against someone with an edged weapon attacking you, is still challenged in some courts.

Zundfolge, your intention is admirable, but sometimes real life intrudes. If you draw your gun because you're absolutely in danger and there's no question that you should be shooting--NOT to bluff anyone, you're absolutely in danger--and before you pull the trigger, the bad guy drops his knife and turns, screaming, to run, are you still going to pull the trigger?

Tamara's story about "The Day I Learned HCI Wants Me Dead" illustrates the principle. She drew and was ready to fire when he stopped so dead he fell down. She says she remembers taking up slack on a Glock trigger before he fell, but she didn't shoot him as he lay on the floor scrambling backward out the door, and a good thing too.

There is a lot to think about when carrying a firearm. It's a huge responsiblity, and the "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6", tough guys would probably rethink their position after a few weeks in jail......

Make no mistake, threaten me with a weapon and you'll probably find a hole, or holes in your body. But you need to know what the law actually says, rather than what some gunwriter says....

I would call the cops as soon as tactically possible... You may stop them from hurting someone else. And calling the cops covers you as well. Be a good witness that what I would do.

Wow



Pretty complicated stuff...

I say call the cops ASAP afterwards, if not during the confrontation. Even if you dial 911 and then drop the phone, everything will be recorded for posterity.

In the afformentioned scenario, seeing three BGs moving in a threatening posture towards my one little scrawny self immediately justifies lethal force in my mind, which is all that Alabama laws requires.

Drawing, DOES NOT MEAN SHOOTING as many have said, if they tuck and run before I aim and squeeze, then great, but dial and drop records everything, including the location since most of today's cellular telephones are encrypted with a GPS device for emergency situations.

My phone sends GPS coordinates as soonas I send 911.

Glenn,

Shifting blame is one of the oldest tricks that dirtbags use.

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What you described is one of the few scenarios where I can for see a BG trying to blame the victim. And the reason he did it your case was because he needed a good reason to show up at a hospital with a gunshot wound.
Any BG knows that the hospital tells the police about patients coming in with gun shot wounds.

The likelyhood of Joe Thug calling the cops and saying that the guy that he was trying to rob pulled a gun on him is remote.