WACO the rules of engagement

DMF,

Exactly how was the FLIR video examined? By some expert watching it? Or a team of experts? If so, that wasn't a scientific examination no matter how many degrees the team members each had or what fields the degrees were awarded in.

A scientific investigation would have looked at the possible types of automatic weapons that the government might have used at Waco. Then it would have used the same type of FLIR at the same altitude and groundspeed and with all other conditions as similar as possible to the conditions the day the intial video was taken. It would have taken FLIR videos of automatic weapons fire of the various possible weapons that could have been used. Then it would have taken footage from the same area with no automatic weapons fire.

Then, and only then, would the experts be brought in to examine the footage. Informed opinion is informed but it is still opinion. Science is a hypothesis that is supported by data obtained from experimentation. Just because someone is a trained scientist does not make their opinion scientific.

Didn't the FBI claim for years that they had no incendiary tear gas at Waco? Wasn't the FBI caught in a lie several years ago when it was definitely proven that the agency did have at least one such device? The fallback party line was,"Yes, it was there but we never used any." Anybody believe them? I've seen FBI behavior in two investigations. If a FBI agent told me that the sun is going to rise in the east in the morning...I'd check that with a compass and a watch. And that opinion is not based on Waco or Ruby Ridge;rather it is based on the actions of several FBI agents and witnessed personally.

I don't think you'll find anyone here or on any gun board who is an outright anarchist.

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Many of the moderators here are border line. Me? I'm what's been called a rational anarchist. I don't need the government to force me to do right or to brush my teeth. However, I realize that there is a large segment of the population who does have such a pathological need. Therefore, I endeavour to live perfectly in an imperfect world.

A scientific investigation would have looked at the possible types of automatic weapons that the government might have used at Waco. Then it would have used the same type of FLIR at the same altitude and groundspeed and with all other conditions as similar as possible to the conditions the day the intial video was taken. It would have taken FLIR videos of automatic weapons fire of the various possible weapons that could have been used. Then it would have taken footage from the same area with no automatic weapons fire.

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Yep. Sounds like scientific methodology alright. And that was just exactly what an investigative commission did under the direction of former US Senator John Danforth. The shootings were restaged and and FLIR's were taken and the results were compared.

And then it was discovered during the restaged events the powder in the ammunition was different and the barrels on the weapons used were different than what was used in reality.

I am not presupposed to conspiracy theories, but it is really hard to avoid it when the government pulls that kind of crap. I'll dig out the links.

And then it was discovered during the restaged events the powder in the ammunition was different and the barrels on the weapons used were different than what was used in reality.

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You can dig if you want, but no need. I've got your six on this. See "Waco: New Revelations" on DVD.

The firearms tested (longer barrels) and the powder used (flash retardant) were both less likely to produce a heat signature of a few thousand degrees (vs a shiny piece of glass in April at maybe, what 80-90 degrees?)

BTW, an earlier poster mentioned that the Fed.gov claimed that no FBI agent fired a shot. He asked, "...if not the FBI, then who?" The federal agency who trained FBI-HRT (hostage rescue team) were individuals in Delta Force who were expert in entry techniques. Delta was on-site, that day just to see how their students were doing, it has been claimed. Another violation of Posse Commitatus.

Rick

Anyone have high quality (full D1 or better) res FLIR footage? I have some expierence in this industry.

Well,

You guys could argue about the small facts 'till the Sun stops shining. But that doesn't change certain keys items:

1. Vernon and Co. were not mainstream religion.
Ostensibly the local authorities had no problems with them, and got along with them fine. They were quiet, kept to themselves. Had "odd" ideas about "the end". Or so we're told. Lest our collective memory slips too quickly let us remember that 30 years ago this decription could fit many baptist churches. You better put aside the demonization of these people because of their beliefs. We'll never really know what they believed, it's been spun to death. Logic would conclude that if the .gov decided to wipe out a small baptist church, and they wanted to cover it up they would make the losers appear as evil as they could.

2. The United States Government used military force, and these people died.
I don't care what the little facts are. Whether they used smoke bombs or incendiary devices. Whether they used a stryker or came in a cattle car. Whether they shot anyone trying to escape or nobody wanted to leave.

3. Four federal agents died.
Four!! They only got four of them!! Who happen to have worked as security for Mr. Clinton (and her husband ) during the governor stint. Yeah, it sounds like the Davidians were real dangerous, stock piling vast amounts of illegal weapons. Sure begins to make you wonder who killed those guys.

4. Literally TONS of evidence was destroyed
By federal agents after it ended. They used bulldozers. And it's been shown plenty was lied about, by those within the federal system. According to Centac, if you pulled that on him that is enough probable cause he could start searching you, your car, your house.. Hey what are people supposed to think when they who hold the keys start destroying evidence?


Winners: FED's
Losers: Branch Davidians, We the People, the Constitution

We so soon forget history. I seem to remember the US Gov. marched on the Mormons in the 1800's too. Then we have the Civil War, which wasn't about slavery, but the fact that there were two United States. This at it's root is all about Federal power, that's it. Imagine a couple states just decided to say "screw you FED, we're pulling our senators". Then left D.C. You'd have the same fireworks.

A radio guy I know, once said; Everything is fine. But once you say; "I just want to be left alone", some guys in funny dark suits and sunglasses show up saying "you better come with us sir".

I was in Austin when the ATF raid went down. Various stuff appeared from interviews around Waco and McClennan County which pointed out the ridiculous nature of the thoughts of the ATF leadership.

The McClennan County sheriff stated that any time he wished to talk to Koresh, he merely phoned and Koresh came to his office.

The warrant alleged that Koresh had become a recluse, and that he had not left the compound for a lengthy period--one or more months. This was factually incorrect, per numerous disinterested witnesses.

It was known in the Austin office of ATF among the rank and file that the raid was a publicity stunt, designed to get favorable attention for the upcoming budget hearings. (Personal, first-hand conversation with a long-time acquaintance within ATF.)

There thus was no real need for any raid-type effort. Past behavior about being investigated for such things as drug manufacturing or child abuse had been cooperative. Knock and enter and interview or search.

Koresh easily could have been persuaded to come to the sheriff's office and arrested there.

Ego and arrogance led to the raid. The results thereafter were 99% a foregone conclusion; only the actual method was subject to wonder.

Art

First, that simply isn't true. Logistically, it can't be, especially at the local level, but even so at the state.

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Really?

Where does it say in the Constitution that government at any level has the power to tell me that I cannot park my camper in my driveway for the winter? (As an example.)

Flashes recorded on an FBI infrared video at the end of the Branch Davidian siege came not from government or Davidian gunfire, but from sunlight reflecting off glass, metal and water, and the movement of tanks and windblown debris, court-appointed infrared experts state.

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Since when does infrared pick up visable light (white light spectrum)?

Now, I know a point of reflection can be hotter than it's surroundings, but REFLECTION is RELATIVE to the angle and the viewer. IE, from one side it is reflecting, from another it is not. Either the sun is beating down on it, or it isn't. Therefore it is either HOT or NOT. If that were the case, it wouldn't be a "flash" but a hot white spot visable for long durations.


These media/government A-HOLES really prey on the stupidity of the general public.

W:TROE and Part 2

The funny thing about this is to me is that I have only been a member of THR for 6 months and I knew how just about everyone was going to respond to this thread, for the most part.

There are those of us who fear our own government (and I believe rightfully so) and tend to see everything in that "tin foil hat/conspiritorial" light. The there are those who support the .gov's right to know what each and every indiviual is doing at all times, no matter the cost, just in case they are doing something wrong...JUST IN CASE!

Finally there are the smart---es, and these happen to be my personal favorites.

Personally, I was never convinced by the FLIR footage...it was unnecessary in my mind. Once I saw the footage of the ATF press lady during the pre-raid ramp up joking about making sure she had enough film, I was convinced that the whole initial raid was a stunt for congressional money.

What happened following this was a giant snaffu, with major mistakes on both sides of the missing door!

The there are those who support the .gov's right to know what each and every indiviual is doing at all times, no matter the cost, just in case they are doing something wrong...JUST IN CASE!

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Then there are those who assume because it fits their preconceived ideas.

For the record, I believe the govt screwed the entire BD situation up completely. I also believe that they tried to cover up their mistakes bigtime, probably in violation of the law. I furthermore believe that the federal agents at the scene were fully capable of doing everything they are accused of.

However, being capable of committing a crime and actually committing it are two very different things. I am fully convinced that, despite the bumbling attempts to end the standoff, David Koresh ordered the fire to be set. He killed his own followers, not the gubmit.

For some reason, the govt-haters seem to need to make Koresh out to be a misunderstood saint, as though this makes the case against the feds even more shocking. Afterall, they were guilty of ineptitude, lying, grandstanding, disinformation, etc. Why not throw murder in the mix too? News flash - there was plenty of factual, provable information to demonstrate their misdeeds w/o resorting to conspriacy theories. Those who accuse the feds of starting the fire seem to gloss over Koresh's demented self-styled savior identity and twisted theology as a basis for his orders to burn the building. Anybody who heard his radio address and knew even a little of the Bible could see what his intentions were. When I heard it and discussed it with a friend of mine, we both had independently come to the same conclusion - Koresh saw the standoff as the fulfillment of the Apocolypse. Killing his followers was not just a possibility; it was a predictable outcome. If the feds contributed in any way to the death of the Davidians, it was that they failed to fully realize how far Koresh would carry his End Times rantings.

I am fully convinced that, despite the bumbling attempts to end the standoff, David Koresh ordered the fire to be set. He killed his own followers, not the gubmit.

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I'm sure pumping hundreds of gallons of CS liquid which is highly flamamble into the "compond" via TANKS had nothing to do with it right?

Gun-ho, I see your hundreds of pounds of flamable CS powder and raise you hundreds of gallons of toxic, flamable ethlyne chloride. Many were killed or incapacitated at the instant of repeated insertion of those noxious chemicals. Others were killed or injured by tank tracks or falling building beams as the trucks ripped the structure apart when they drove into it.

Another poster mentioned the video of the F-Troop <camerawoman> and her cameras and then-blank video cassettes she was handing out to every-third F-Trooper. It was asked in court whatever happened to them. They just
disappearoed.

Another asked about high-quality versions of the FLIR tapes. Tucson Attorney, David T. Hardy had to do a FOIA on the FLIR tapes with BATF, FBI, and the rest of Fed.gov figthing tooth and nail to ignore them, and then again to keep the court from mandating that they be released. And only then, did fed.gov, **led by Bill Clinton and Janet Reno** give we the good guys, FOURTH-GENERATION copies of the FLIR tapes, denying that better copies existed.

I think this THR debate on Waco is all but ended. The Fed.gov apologists have been beaten about the heads and shoulders with each of our syllables.

Time to call it a day.

Rick

Waco certainly was showy - just like picking up Elian Gonzalez to return him to Cuba.

I always get uncomfortable whenever law enforcement invests a lot of effort in arranging "events" for the media.

The Washington Post

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"Waco: The Rules of Engagement" suggests that the government's version of events -- as recounted in official reports and three sets of congressional hearings -- basically amounts to a lie. Contrary to all testimony, the film alleges that federal forces shot at Branch Davidians on April 19, probably with machine guns. The filmmakers say the muzzle flashes are visible on a heat-sensitive surveillance tape made that day by the FBI.

The "Waco" filmmakers claim to have found proof of government malevolence -- in the form of a grainy, black-and-white videotape recorded by an FBI surveillance aircraft circling overhead. Shot from an altitude of about two miles, the video was made with an infrared camera designed to detect heat sources, including bursts of weapons fire on the ground.

"When the film is this quality, you can see things that are not producing heat," Hogan explains. The tape is slowed to points where others have seen gunfire. "If there are men there, they would be run over by the tank," he notes. "But there's no person there."

The shooters-on-the-ground theory simply defies logic: "If you are a commander and you have tanks, why expose your people to gunfire?" he asks, exasperated.

"At this point the FBI agents are risking their lives, pulling people out of the fire. Not standing back firing into the inferno."

The technician cues up another tape, this time to show what people look like on FLIR. It's a sequence shot after the fire ended that afternoon, when men are searching frantically in a storm shelter for survivors. This part isn't in "Waco," the movie. The men's bodies are clearly evident at some points, ghostlike at others, as the temperatures of the backgrounds change.

But here's the main point: If the FBI agents were trying to kill everyone, as the conspiracists argue, then why search for survivors at all?

Paranoia Runs Deep

Suspicion and conspiracy theories tend to arise whenever the government clams up. The Kennedy assassination cottage industry thrives on withheld documents. The alleged Roswell, N.M., "alien" survives 50 years later because the government classified a report about a weather balloon.

The FBI side of the story is scarcely represented in "Waco: The Rules of Engagement." The filmmakers say that's because the bureau refused their requests to interview key personnel involved in the standoff.

Second Opinions
Maybe those experts weren't good enough. Maybe their equipment wasn't advanced enough. Next stop, the night vision lab at Fort Belvoir. We wanted the best eyeballs in the country.

In that facility, the Army's brainiest scientists, engineers and physicists do top-secret work building the type of surveillance devices that helped defeat the Iraqi army during the Gulf War. We took a copy of the FBI's tape to the lab, to have it evaluated by four night vision scientists. Theirs would be only a visual review, they stressed -- no special equipment except a video-projection system.

Quote:
They watched intently for an hour, then voted unanimously: "It looks like reflections to us," said John Palmer, the senior scientist. Nothing remotely resembling gunfire.

.Gov hater? Me ?????


ummmm... I thought I made it pretty clear in my signature and tagline that I am a tin-foil-hat-wearing/.gov hating, anarchist, and conpiracy theory subscriber, but I digress

I never made Koresh out to be a saint...he was a weird if you ask me, but then, if you ask anyone who really knows me, they'll tell you the same thing about me, owning all the guns and all. Does that mean the .gov folks have the right to dig into every part of my life?

I realize they say they had what police state supporters like to call "PC", but again, as I stated in my original post, the thing that tripped my trigger was the pre-raid video in which an ATF press agent holds up a stack of videos and says something like "better make sure I have enough tape for this one" (I actually don't remeber her exact quote, but that was the thought behind it) - like the whole initial raid was a video stunt.

Wether Koresh was guilty of the things he has been accused of is never going to be known. All the pertinent evidence at the scene of the crime, er event, was conveniently destroyed by the fire and then bulldozing. I found it odd that we left the Murrah Building standing for how long?????? but destroyed the "evil compound" almost immedately.

"Move along citizen...nothing to see here"

So us .gov crazies fear our government because it is afraid to admit its own mistakes.

The Washington Post???

"If you are a commander and you have tanks, why expose your people to gunfire?" he asks, exasperated.

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Utterly idiotic. Has this person never heard of tank/infantry tactics?

Where did the Post article quote the other side? They quoted fed.gov types and are impressed that fed.gov would support fed.gov.

Amazing bit of journalism.

And BATF *still* had no business fudging (lying under oath) a search warrant and violating Posse Commitatus by invoking a false drug nexus to get the National Guard involved.

Rick

The thing that bothered me is the evident effort to make sure no one was punished for what happened. The top echelon is protected and even promoted. Worker bees were protected.

Quick quiz, kiddies. Who were the star players on the military side of the fiasco?

Buzzzzzt. Your time is up. Answer is 1>Wesley Clark former NATO commander and presidential candidate, and 2>General Schoomaker (questionable spelling) formerly head of US Special Operations Command and currently Secretary of the Army.

If interviews of some adults that left Koresh's church can be believed, he was in fact a kook. One of the conditions for married couples to join the congregation was that the man forever gave up the right to have intimate relations with his wife to Koresh, who could have sex with any woman in the church any time he wanted. What a great guy.

I think Koresh was capable of bringing destruction on his followers. I don't know if that is what happened or not. I do think huge, inexcusable mistakes were made by the government in how the situation was handled. The involvement of the military is troubling, and I don't think the raid ever should have occurred -- at least not the way it did.

In any case, it was a deeply tragic event. To think of those children perishing like they did is just horrible. Perhaps blame lies on both sides.

Z Infidel, I also don't see Koresh as particularly rational. It is still my belief that ATF was wrong in their initial methodology--both before and then during the assault.

The FBI deal, as I said earlier, followed a general pattern I anticipated when they first moved in on the scene. Only the details were an unknown, but the Feebies merely followed their programming.

I watched all of the Ruby Ridge and Waco hearings. While nobody was obviously punished for their wrong-doing, and I watched a heckuva lot of lying and coverup-bureaucratese BS, there were at least some positive outcomes.

1. The "Republic of Texas" nutzoids. A situation finally arose where there was a kidnapping and assault by three of the RoT guys. Federal affair, kidnapping, right? In this case, feds were on the scene, but Texas lawmen handled it.

2. The "Freemen" deal up in Montana. The feds made no effort whasoever at using force to solve the problem. In contrast with Waco, there was at least some justification in this event.

In the FWIW department, both the RoT folks and the Freemen had stolen some two or three millions of dollars, each, by their machinations in claiming legal standing to issue letters of credit of one sort or another.

Art

Gun-ho, I see your hundreds of pounds of flamable CS powder and raise you hundreds of gallons of toxic, flamable ethlyne chloride. Many were killed or incapacitated at the instant of repeated insertion of those noxious chemicals.

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So now we're up to "hundreds" of gallons, huh? Maybe even thousands? With all those acutely hazardous liquid chemicals being pumped into the building, the Davidians could have just floated out on a raft.

As for the claim that "many were killed or incapacitated at the instant of repeated insertion of those noxious chemicals", that is just plain funny. Why not claim that the gubmit sent in chucacabras to feast on their flesh?

The FBI side of the story is scarcely represented in "Waco: The Rules of Engagement." The filmmakers say that's because the bureau refused their requests to interview key personnel involved in the standoff.

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Uh-huh. Its hard to reap huge profits from an evenhanded documentary. Much too boring. Better to exploit the fears of conspiratorialists who will pay big bucks to get their "evil gubmit" fix.

BTW, do you really think that the media would pass up an opportunity to skewer the govt with a story that, if true, would be bigger than Watergate? Bigger than My Lai? Isn't is more realistic that the media outlets looked at it, even did one or two stories on it (e.g., 60 Minutes), and after looking at all the facts, decided there just wasn't anything more than unsupported accusations and theories without factual basis?

Da Gubmit and Da Meedya



ummmmm..... This is the same media that tried to convince America that Dubbya fled the military early with FAKE DOCUMENTS, the same media that has recently had to repent from making up stories a la` Koran flushing at Gitmo, etc, etc.

I trust the Meedya less than I trust the Gubmit...they have a serious agenda and it ain't pretty.

Hawkmoon said:

Where does it say in the Constitution that government at any level has the power to tell me that I cannot park my camper in my driveway for the winter?

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Apparently, it’s in the “commerce” clause.

~G. Fink

Apparently, it’s in the “commerce” clause.

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Along with The Communist Manifesto, War and Peace and the The Little Train That Could.

Once I saw the footage of the ATF press lady during the pre-raid ramp up joking about making sure she had enough film

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She seriously did???

Appointment with The Apocalypse- the Waco Files
various FR links | 04-28-03 | The Heavy Equipment Guy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/901664/posts