Spanish defacto US second official language

"Yet, some of the anti-Spanish-language people seem intent on making this about illegal immigration."

The reason is simple: CRITICAL MASS. When you have a couple of million people a year coming across the border illegally, you start having a major cultural impact very quickly. This was a non-issue, or at least a minor issue, until the illegal alien flood began in the '90s. One more Clinton legacy.

And, coupled with the sheer mass of new illegal population, mostly Spanish-speaking, is the momentum of all the leftist dogma about "welcoming."

If you can't beat a people, dilute them.

Dilution of the American culture is the primary goal IMO. Language is a high priority target, because it binds people and cultures. Dissolve the binding ties and you can change the culture to suit your agenda.

thereisnospoon, I'm with you!

As for the bit about McDonald's, it bugs me too. However, buck up and get over it.

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Buck up and get over it? Conform you American, I demand it! That's the attitude that got us where we are. What a perfect example

Not hijacked. The two subjects are inexorably intertwined.
Biker

OFFICIALLY HIJACKED

Marshall: Buck up and get over it? Conform you American, I demand it! That's the attitude that got us where we are. What a perfect example

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Yeah, that's what I was saying.

RileyMC: Dilution of the American culture is the primary goal IMO. Language is a high priority target, because it binds people and cultures. Dissolve the binding ties and you can change the culture to suit your agenda.

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And some people make fun of Hillary talking about the Vast Rightwing Conspiracy.

OFFICIALLY HIJACKED

The debate is over folks. We have a second language and it is Spanish. When half the items I buy at the grocery store have English on one side and Spanish on the other, it's over. When the TSA tag in my lugggage is English on one side and Spanish on the other, it's over. And you know what? I don't mind Spanish speaking people at all. What I do mind is that it is being made easy and convienient to live in this country without having to learn English. We are encouraging a separate society and the balkanization of the US.
I wonder how widely the Constitution and Bill of Rights are disseminated in Spanish?

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This is the original post in this thread. It not only mentions Spanish as a second language but balkanization and seperate societies, so stop with the "Hijacking" comments and realize the two are entertwined both in this thread and in this country as a whole. And no one has yet addressed the question about the BoR or the Constitution being disseminated in Spanish.

Would that "Hijacking" argument be a non sequitor or a strawman or ....


And for the love of Pete would someone tell me how to spell check on this stupid thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And to do so they must "conform"? I don't like that. Eventually, we'll ask if they are "American enough". Then, we'll ask if citizens are "American enough". Then -- well -- you get the idea. Hey, isn't this what our great Homeland Security thugs are already doing? (Sorry, I just cannot help myself.)

I'll try to go away now.

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Ezekiel,

I think you misunderstand my point, and I think my opening salvo may have led you to that misunderstnading.

I am not saying that one must give up their heritage to come to our country. What would America be without Bratwurst for goodness sake? or hundreds of other things that have become a part of the American landscape, but that's just it. People from other countries came and added to America, they did not come and demand to be catered to.

OFFICIALLY HIJACKED

This is the original post in this thread. It not only mentions Spanish as a second language but balkanization and seperate societies, so stop with the "Hijacking"

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But you you guys are not talking about balkanization and separate societies -- you're talking about illegal immigration.

How the Spanish speakers got here doesn't change anything about balkanization or separate societies.

Your arguments about balkanization and separate societies would be 100% the same regardless of the illegal immigration issue.

Yes, the topics are related. But they are not the same topic.

OFFICIALLY HIJACKED

"And no one has yet addressed the question about the BoR or the Constitution being disseminated in Spanish."

As a matter of fact, I mentioned that this is a nation built on law and therefore on language.

Were it not for illegal immigration we would not be batting around the issue of Spanish as a second language. When 20 per cent of a neighboring country lives inside your country illegally and the prospect is for a continued and even greater presence, also illegally, you can damn well bet that language, and many other things, become issues.

I see Chertoff, the unimpressive W. handpuppet, is pushing Bush's "guest worker" program as part of a DHS reform package. Earth to Bush adminstration: We are at war, we don't need to be importing millions of more immigrants, and, we are full up on Mexicans right now, Senor President, we really are. Sheesh.

2 cents...

I am a son of a legal immigrant who came here after WWII. Our family spoke English, and our native language. There was no question to this nor any expectation otherwise. It's called a bi-lingual home. Seems like some Americans now think that is a bad thing and that people of other languages should not have to learn English, the language of the Country.

I feel that the US should invoke American English as the official language for government use and print. Simply because it is the right thing to do. The issue I have always had is that you just can't represent every other language. For example you go into a government facility in many places in the southwest and see only Spanish. What about Japanese, Chinese, Swedish, French, Togalan, Russian, etc? Growing up I felt that it didn't make much sense to cater to one immigrant population and not the other. So of course it's ridiculous to then do all of them, so don't - do one: English.

People can still learn multiple languages and schools should teach them. In fact, it is the better for them to do so. Like some eluded to about the French - it is most common for a European to know several languages enough to function. I am not xenophobic, in fact I am very multicultural. I also am a born US tax paying citizen who wants simplicity and logic in our system of government.

Why is that so hard for some to understand?

odysseus: Seems like some Americans now think that is a bad thing and that people of other languages should not have to learn English

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Thank you for addressing the question at hand.

I think people who do not learn English are stupid (but I also think it's a bit of a myth that people aren't learning it ... not using and not knowing aren't the same thing).

Anyways, the problem -- IMHO -- with official English is the "have to" I emphasized in your quote -- the idea of making people learn it. IMHO, it's un-American to make people learn a language. As well, it's the leftists who make people to do something for their own good.

It also raises the question of how far the schools/government should go in making people learn English. When should the government back off? What steps would be appropriate and what steps would overstep certain bounds of the rights and liberty that we all gnash our teeth about around THR.

I recall some years ago that many Black leaders were pushing for "Ebonics" to be accepted as a second language. According to some posters here, why shouldn't instructions for cooking macaroni be printed in Ebonics also? Blacks make up about the same percentage of the population as do Hispanics. What's the difference?
Biker

Well said, Odysseus.

Long ago, when I was a boy and the Bible was still referenced in public schools, we learned about the Tower of Babel. A strong people became ineffectual when they could no longer understand each other due to speaking different languages.

Viva ingles por los estados unidos! (And just incidently what's a pinche gringo?)

According to some posters here, why shouldn't instructions for cooking macaroni be printed in Ebonics also?

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On the one hand, I'd find that to be silly. On the other hand, I wouldn't get angry about it.

No one is forcing macaroni makers to print in Spanish. They're doing it because it helps them sell more boxes. It's a free market. If so-called ebonics helped them sell more pasta, more power to them. Viva Capitalism!

utahminirevolver ~

Translates to "effing gringo." Only not bowdlerized.

pax

It’s not about macaroni boxes printed in Spanish. It’s about government on every level catering to non-English speaking invaders, providing free goods and services, and, get this, even voting ballots in foreign languages!!!

There is no provision to screen out non-citizens at the voting booth. None.

I should have been more specific, C. Why not waste more public money by printing State DL manuals in Ebonics? Providing Ebonic translators in court? So on....
Biker

cuchulainn:

There is no "have to", by means of any force or requirement. My assertion is that the Gov prints and uses one language. If you want to participate in that, you need to bone up on the language enough to do so. You immigrated here, so you should know it or learn it. If you were born here - guess what, you have a free education system to teach it to you. Even legal immigrants can get ESL (english as a second language) classes. You need to do the WORK and learn.

I don't care about what the private market and pasta makers do. That is their free will. I don't expect that a Spanish market needs to have english printed products, nor an Italian place. That's a distraction to this discussion in my opinion. I am talking strictly Government, paid by tax payers.

It also raises the question of how far the schools/government should go in making people learn English.

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We shouldn't make anyone learn English.

However, all government business, including public schools, should only be in English. Spanish is only one of many languages spoken by immigrants (legal or otherwise), what about Chinese, Korean, Tagalog, German, Italian, Gaelic, Portugues, etc.? Unless we're willing to include ALL languages, then there should be only ONE that everyone has to use. English.

I should have been more specific, C. Why not waste more public money by printing State DL manuals in Ebonics? Providing Ebonic translators in court? So on....

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Because Ebonics isn't an official language, but rather a derivative of English (hidden though it may be).

A mi me dá igual porque hablo español y tambien se lo he enseñado a mis hijos.

Folks, I really don't see what the big deal is. Being able to speak more than one language is simply one sign of a good education. Before my first child was born I decided that my children would be bilingual. In order to insure this, I have never spoken anything but Spanish to them. They learned English from their mother (and now in school). Their ability to speak two languages has already been of great benefit to them and will only continue to be. Among other things, it will make it easier for them to learn other languages more easily.

I don't mean to be insulting and this is not at all personal, but my guess is that those who are so upset about the growing influence of Spanish in the U.S. can't speak any language other than English with any degree of fluency.

I just got back from 2 weeks in Spain, in which English is probably less commonly spoken and understood than in any other Western European country. While my children and I all spoke Spanish, my wife (who actually understands the language pretty well and can make herself understood in it, but with a rather noticeable accent) found that, without exception, anytime she struggled, whoever she was talking to invariably broke into very good English. Nobody ever seemed exasperated that she couldn't speak Spanish well. The U.S. would be much better off if fluency in another language were more widespread. Among other things, people would be less paranoid when they heard another language in use.

I'm happy to see the number of car dealerships, law offices, banks, etc. in my town that advertise that they speak Spanish. It goes to show that the owners are good business people and smart enough to do what it takes to make more money. As a ardent proponent of capitalism, I think that is a good thing!

The concept is the same as in "We don't want to learn how to speak/read English so the rest of America must cater to us". And Black people make up about 14% of the population as do Hispanics. What about printing everything in Viet Namese? Somalian?
Biker

odysseus: There is no "have to", by means of any force or requirement.

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I know you weren't suggesting that, but at some point, you do force people to do this. It's a crime -- punishable with prison time -- to fail to do your taxes. If we offered tax form only in English, the government would be forcing people to use English -- and the punishment would be prison.

Look, I agree that everyone should learn English. But Official-English-Only raises some very un-American problems.

odysseus: If you want to participate in that, you need to bone up on the language enough to do so.

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Here you run up against that pesky "privileges and immunities" clause in the 13th Amendment. Public school are a privilege of citizens, and providing such schooling only to English speaking citizens would violate that clause.

Of course, I'm against the idea of public schools, but that's another argument. The fact remains that as long as they are a legal privilege, we have a Constitutional obligation to make them equally-accessible to all citizens. That sometimes requires classes non-English.

Yes, my point gets a bit debatable when you add the option for English-immersion -- but I'd also note that the other side of that debate is that immersion is not the same level of equal accessibility as one's primary tongue.

2nd, this thread is not about illegal immigration;

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Of course it is. Afterall...

Non Sequitur. The discussion is about people who (allegdly) refuse to learn English.

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Almost all of whom are here illegally(yes, it has in fact been studied and the percentage is overwhelming. Something like 93% or higher.)

And let's get over this "German as second language" fantasy, too. Just as with past attempts by apologists to cite tiny "Chinatowns" and such as failure to assimilate on a level with current illigal invasion this too is hyperbole. There were never requirements for bilingual teaching or labeling or government documentation. The sheer numbers were never the same. Nobody got sued for refusing to hire someone because they spoke only german, etc.

I'll say again, stick to the reality and get out of the 19th century. This is the 21st and the illegals are not like past immigrants, nor are they here for the same honorable reasons nor are they acting like those past usually honorable immigrants. Anyone who tries to characterize todays Mexican invaders in past styles automatically loses all credibility. You may defend them if you want but do so based on todays reality.

Note, just so the Apologists can get bent out of shape: I tossed a Mexican Goober out the door today. Wanted a car, didn't speak English, had no license, SS card. His pet translator had no rational explanation. i got what they claimed was their addy, then tossed them out and told him(via her) to come back when he learned English and got some actual friggin' ID.

Then I called the cops and gave them his name and addy. Maybe something will come of it...or maybe he'll just be the next SOB that runs someone down with no insurance. The latter is probably the most likely.

it's not about capitalism

It also raises the question of how far the schools/government should go in making people learn English.

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Your CULTURE is in English, man. Your seminal historical documents. Your laws. Your great authors. Your value-makers.

Capisc'?