Sheeesh!!.....

I think most leisure-type endeavors have different "classes" of participants, flyfishing being the one that comes to mind foremost. I get dirty looks from the "tweed and bamboo" set when I'm on the stream in rubber hip boots and a t-shirt.
I had a classic 1970 BSA Lightning that I loved, and I'd ride with anyone-Harley's to Honda's, but I know some vintage English bike guys that are so snobby they won't ride with others riding anything but British bikes, and vintage British bikes at that.
I've seen the same thing in the woods during grouse season...some guys must have the right gun, the right dog, the right clothes.
Maybe it's a "whole experience" thing, where some feel you must immerse yourself in every aspect of an endeavor in order to fully enjoy it...If everything must be perfect, from my equipment to my clothes, it seems too much like work!

They're just human

Let's see. Heard also around the boards:

Trapshooters believe that all skeet shooters wear pantyhose.
Skeet shooters think that trapshooters wear the pantyhose.
My (P/K/L/Kolar/Seitz/Alf) makes me a better trapshooter than that NEF that you shoot.

No, some of the Vintagers are just defensive and are acting human about their choice of gun and hobby. We see it everyday in other places where folks take differences/choices way too seriously. Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge, imported wine vs domestic wine, beer versus mass produced yellow forming water from St Louis (oops) are all choices. It is what makes us human.

paul....

Dave-
My first fly rod was a aluminum hardware store special, with an old South Bend reel! Fell in love with the sport from the first day out. I just hate to think of some people avoiding a new endeavor because they feel it is too intimidating to try, or they feel they need to spend thousands of dollars to outfit themselves. Hey, everyone was a beginner at one time. I welcome and encourage neophytes out in the fields and on the streams, and all I expect from them is ethics, safety, and respect for nature.

I guess Dr Suess wasn't as popular as I thought...

The Sneetches
by Dr. Suess

Now the Star-bellied Sneetches had bellies with stars.
The Plain-bellied Sneetches had none upon thars.
The stars weren't so big; they were really quite small.
You would think such a thing wouldn't matter at all.
But because they had stars, all the Star-bellied Sneetches
would brag, "We're the best kind of Sneetch on the beaches."

With their snoots in the air, they would sniff and they'd snort,
"We'll have nothing to do with the plain-bellied sort."
And whenever they met some, when they were out walking,
they'd hike right on past them without even talking.

When the Star-bellied children went out to play ball,
could the Plain-bellies join in their game? Not at all!
You could only play ball if your bellies had stars,
and the Plain-bellied children had none upon thars.

When the Star-bellied Sneetches had frankfurter roasts,
or picnics or parties or marshmallow toasts,
they never invited the Plain-bellied Sneetches.
Left them out cold in the dark of the beaches.
Kept them away; never let them come near,
and that's how they treated them year after year....

I belong to that same board and while not a Vintager I'm hard pressed to see how opposing the introduction of an over/under side event is "elitism."

It is their organization with a defined set of rules. The participants conduct their shoots as they wish and should you or I want to take part we have to play the game as decided by organizers.

This is not exclusive to the Vintagers. Our beloved 870s aren't permitted in CAS (no hammer) nor are most sxs guns because they have ejectors. By the same measure I can't shoot PPC competitions with a .22 pistol. This isn't elitism, it's just what the participants decided was appropriate.

Dressing up like an Edwardian aristocrat and chasing clays with a sidelock isn't my idea of fun. Neither is putting on cowboy duds and shooting CAS but I don't begrude those that do and if I want to play I'll do it the way they want.

Paul

What happened with the Sneetches? Tell the rest, please.

...Then one day, it seems, while the Plain-bellied Sneetches
were moping, just moping alone on the beaches,
sitting there, wishing their bellies had stars,
up zipped a stranger in the strangest of cars.
“My friends, ” he announced in a voice clear and keen,
”My name is Sylvester McMonkey McBean.
I’ve heard of your troubles; I’ve heard you’re unhappy.
But I can fix that; I’m the fix-it-up chappie.
’ve come here to help you; I have what you need.
My prices are low, and I work with great speed,
and my work is one hundred per cent guaranteed.”
Then quickly, Sylvester McMonkey McBean
put together a very peculiar machine.
Then he said, “You want stars like a Star-bellied Sneetch?
My friends, you can have them . . . . for three dollars each.
Just hand me your money and climb on aboard.”
They clambered inside and the big machine roared.
It bonked. It clonked. It jerked. It berked.
It bopped them around, but the thing really worked.
When the Plain-bellied Sneetches popped out, they had stars!
They actually did, they had stars upon thars!
Then they yelled at the ones who had stars from the start,
”We’re exactly like you; you can’t tell us apart.
We’re all just the same now, you snooty old smarties.
Now we can come to your frankfurter parties!”
“Good grief!” groaned the one who had stars from the first.
”We’re still the best Sneetches, and they are the worst.
But how in the world will we know,” they all frowned,
”if which kind is what or the other way ’round?”

Then up stepped McBean with a very sly wink, and he said,
”Things are not quite as bad as you think.
You don’t know who’s who, that is perfectly true.
But come with me, friends, do you know what I’ll do?
I’ll make you again the best Sneetches on beaches,
and all it will cost you is ten dollars eaches.
Belly stars are no longer in style, ” said McBean.
”What you need is a trip through my stars-off machine.
This wondrous contraption will take off your stars,
so you won’t look like Sneetches who have them on thars.”
That handy machine, working very precisely,
removed all the stars from their bellies quite nicely.
Then, with snoots in the air, they paraded about.
They opened their beaks and proceeded to shout,
”We now know who’s who, and there isn’t a doubt,
the best kind of Sneetches are Sneetches without.”
Then, of course those with stars all got frightfully mad.
To be wearing a star now was frightfully bad.
Then, of course old Sylvester McMonkey McBean
invited them into his stars-off machine.
Then, of course from then on, you can probably guess,
things really got into a horrible mess.
All the rest of the day on those wild screaming beaches,
the Fix-it-up-Chappie was fixing up Sneetches.
Off again, on again, in again, out again,
through the machine and back round about again,
still paying money, still running through,
changing their stars every minute or two,
until neither the Plain- nor the Star-bellies knew
whether this one was that one or that one was this one
or which one was what one or what one was who!
Then, when every last cent of their money was spent,
the Fix-It-Up-Chappie packed up and he went.
And he laughed as he drove in his car up the beach,
”They never will learn; no, you can’t teach a Sneetch!”

But McBean was quite wrong, I’m quite happy to say,
the Sneetches got quite a bit smarter that day.
That day, they decided that Sneetches are Sneetches,
and no kind of Sneetch is the BEST on the beaches.
That day, all the Sneetches forgot about stars,
and whether they had one or not upon thars.

Fine line.

I off road in Land Rovers (hey look at my screen name... ). When we have "Rover Runs", all the trucks are Rovers.

When we have open runs, everyones invited.

We tend to have more "open runs", but in general, the guys tend to gravitate towards their interests and the Rover guys hang with the Rovers and the J**p guys do their thing (though we don't understand it).

They're playing dress up and having fun in their little portion of the hobby/sport. Let them enjoy it and enjoy the company of any of their membership smart enough to see the other side of the fence from time to time.

Among swing dancers there's the group that wear sweats and tees, just looking to be casual and enjoy the dancing.

They get looked down on by the scenesters who, although also dedicated dancers, dress in period clothes and adopt a '30s persona.

And offsetting them are the rockabilly kids who listen to similar music but dress on the rougher side.

Everybody has to have their niche it seems. Personality meets identity and all that.

i am of two minds on this matter.

on the one hand, i am trying to decide what my alter ego, phineas witherpickle (british adventurer extraordinaire) would have to say. he'd probably just shrug and go back to big game hunting.

on the other hand, i'd want to stand outside the match with a winchester 1897, whistling yankee doodle.

Rover guys hang with the Rovers and the J**p guys do their thing (though we don't understand it).

Click to expand...

It's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand.

Everyone likes to form their own clubs and seek out individuals with similar interests and tastes. It'll quickly get irritating and hostile if you're hanging around with people who have nothing in common with you. Some take interests a bit too seriously, turn it into an elitism thing, and become phobic or vile towards any of the alternatives. Though, not everyone sharing a particular interest will be predisposed to a certain elitism or lack thereof.

One prime example...as an AR15 owner, I've seen certain people ban together at certain forums and form an elitism bandwagon where it's "nothing but the best since they're at home dodging grenades every passing moment and need to depend on their $500 scope mount to retain zero at 1200 yards". Then you have the more realistic folks who actually shoot their guns and smile a lot more. Don't let a certain group burn in a negative stereotype; you're bound to find more realistic folk if you keep at it.

Hmmmm

Maybe show up with one of those sub-$250 'dog-ear hammer' coach guns that Dunhams, Big 5, etc sell, and watch the choking & gasping from the guys with the $4,000+ guns...

Whatever tickles your fancy. Our local CAS chapter finally disbanded due to differences of opinion, ie. the organizer and his tribe decided that "celebrities" from other chapters didn't have to be present for the safety talk prior to shooting. Rules say everbody has to be present....oboy. Yes, its what makes us human. If people want to be exclusive in their sport, fine by me, probably not my kind of people anyway. I don't miss that tribe from CAS one bit.

Paul, I'm more into inclusion than exclusion. I long for the day when we all move past our "Silly Little Tribes"....

Click to expand...

Sad to say, you're dreaming Dave :banghead:

As there become more options, they spawn more clubs/organizations "dedicated" to that specific item, and with that come the attitudes... Shooting is bad, but nothing like the classic and antique car world. Having judged them for a number of years, that is probably the worst bunch I have ever dealt with.

Having said that, I like nothing better than being the Philistine in the crowd and shooters are necessarily more polite than most organizations

Old NFO-
Good point about classic cars, but what concerns me, specific to the shooting sports, is this: we have well-funded opposition whose ultimate goal is to shut down all shooting sports, not just those splinter groups/survivalist types...we should seek some common ground and realize that the tweed-wearing groups are as much in jeopardy of losing their right to pursue their sport as the camo-clad. We need to encourage participation, and not discourage newbies. I may never own an M-4 or AK, but I support the rights of others who do, and I realize that if I don't support their right, I can't complain when ownership of my side by side or over/under, no matter how vintage or "period" it may be, is restricted to club grounds only. Like I said, I hate to hear of people who do not get involved in the shooting sports because the barriers to entry are too intimidating, those barriers being both the legal gymnastics in order to buy a gun, and the fear of not being accepted by the shooting/sporting community because of inexperience or lack of proper equipment. The common thread here is an interest in shooting: lets all embrace that interest and encourage participation, as this is where the hope for the continuation of the sport lies.

Skeet, Trap, Sporting Clays, Benchrest rifle, 3 gun, IDPA, Hi-points to Holland and Holland. Everybody everywhere gets along just fine with everybody else.

...compared to handgun permitees vs. all other shooters in western New York when I lived there. Nothing like it for class warfare, contempt, vituperation, scorn and honest-to-gosh hatred.

Hawk-
"Vituperation" has me scambling for the dictionary!

Elitism or just plain rudeness? I once brought a friend to the range to introduce him to the joys of .22 rimfire plinking when two guys, club members, in black BDU's show up and basically demand that we vacate the range as they needed some type of custom range set-up for their practice session for a competition they had coming up...now this was a weekday afternoon, open range time, no reservations accepted or needed, and a direct violation of club policy, which I pointed out. These guys very reluctantly stood by, grumbling, as my buddy and I finished our very basic, "untactical", low-tech, fun, informal shooting session. My buddy loved the shooting part, but was really put off by the attitude shown by these other two.

I had a very similar experience when taking my daughter golfing for the first time. But...nobody is looking to restrict ownership of my golf clubs. Let's embrace all shooting sports and interests, and look at it as a community with a common interest, with many different ways to participate.

I think that's the ticket. I have no issue with the vintagers holding a hard line on gear. They should be able to direct their small segment of the hobby in the direction of their chosing and be as restrictive or as open as their membership desires.

However, they also need to see themselves as part of the larger population that falls under "shooting sports" as well.

By the same token, others need to accept their rules. If you don't want to follow them, find another portion of the hobby closer to your own goals and/or start something yourself.

Vintagers were created because someone or a group felt a desire to do something different. No reason others can't do the same.

Elitism doesn't happen because of the rules or the gear. It comes from the personalities involved.

I don't mind people having 'British Double Gun Clubs', as long as they don't expect me to have one when I go to shoot trap. There's always people with attitudes. I didn't get into shooting until I was older and, for the most part, I've found the shooting community to be very welcoming. As long as you're up front about being a newbie, people will help you more than scorn you. Of course, I don't shoot in any organized competitions or clubs. I've just started shooting a little more trap at a Department of Conservation range, and everyone there I've met is great. Maybe it's worse with the private clubs? I wouldn't know.

Dave, Johnpl and Gunsrovers, I think you have all hit the nail on the head- that is regardless of which segment, we are ALL being opposed by the grabbers and have to come together.

The one thing that scares me is that some groups will not participate because they think, "it will NEVER happen to us, since we've been here XX years".

What is really sad is that I know people who are preparing for this to happen in our lifetimes and taking steps to ensure they can protect themselves and their families (and I'm not talking about survivalists, etc).

DillHarris you bring up a good point about admitting you are a newbie and getting help- At the same time, you are shooting at an egalitarian range, without all the snoots, etc. that populate the private ranges and clubs. That is where you almost always see the mine's bigger than yours mentality, 95% of the time from those who are not truly successful in their lives and figure $$ buys them success, if only in that one little area of life. Anyone that contradicts them, or has a "bigger" one, is automatically subject to disdain and banishment.

A personal example, a number of years ago I attended a Colt SAA group over in Texas, and brought my family owned, well used Colt Cavalry SAA. A number of folks were very interested in it, to the obvious consternation of an "older" gent. He finally diegned to come look at the pistol, and promptly became very critical of the finish, the chip in the grip and numerous other items. He also said I had "obviously" paid too much for the pistol, otherwise I wouldn't have brought a "substandard" piece to the meeting. I told him I though $12 was a pretty good price, and that it had been in my family since 1872. I then put it back in the case and walked out the door, and have never been back since, nor will I ever attend another Colt SAA function. Now I realize I was being petty, but even now- 10+ years later, I don't care... And oh by the way, it's STILL a shooter