Robert Heinlein and guns
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Read'em and re-read'em and re-read'em...
Never had any sort of epiphany about the politics. From way back in high school, it was sort of, "Well, of course. What else?"
, Art
Never had any sort of epiphany about the politics. From way back in high school, it was sort of, "Well, of course. What else?"
, ArtLightningJoe
Member
I read Have Spacesuit Will Travel (dumbest title in all SFdom) when I was 10 and a many many more after that. Heinlein got me through early adolescence. I hit the wall with Glory Road (1957). Seems like Heinlein started a serious slide with that novel. Yes, he had some sexual problems. We see some foreshadowing of this in HSWT and Door Into Summer, but he either kept his relationships between men and little girls on the right side of romantic (HSWT) or time traveled the little girl into adulthood (DIS). With Glory Road, he begins to let it all hang out--his protagonist is regarded as having committed a major faux pas by declining to impregnate a 13 year old girl and her mother.
In the 40s and 50s, Heinlein was so much better than any other SF writer. Asimov was 2nd but a distant and far nerdier 2nd. Either RAH was always a nut but controlled his writing before Glory Road or he suffered from some sort of progressive neurological disorder that started to really affect his writing from 1957 on. I haven't read The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress. Many say it's his best. Maybe I'll try it.
In the 40s and 50s, Heinlein was so much better than any other SF writer. Asimov was 2nd but a distant and far nerdier 2nd. Either RAH was always a nut but controlled his writing before Glory Road or he suffered from some sort of progressive neurological disorder that started to really affect his writing from 1957 on. I haven't read The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress. Many say it's his best. Maybe I'll try it.
priv8ter
Member
Cool
Like a lot of folks around here, I would like to think I was already heading down this path, and RAH simply reinforced my beliefs. Kind of like finding this website...it's nice to know you aren't TOTALLY alone in the world.
His books have had a large influence on my wife. When she got pregnant, I started reading to her out loud...we did it for the baby. The first book was Stranger in a Strange Land. Since then, I have read her every Heinlein book we can get our hands on. We have a daughter due in about two weeks, and plan on naming her Maureen, after the Heinlein character.
By the way...Friday was not a redhead. She was described as physically resembling a Native American, which is why it's amusing to have a copy of the book with a blond on the cover. Heinlein cared so little about race differences, that he never really made a point of it in his stories.
greg
Like a lot of folks around here, I would like to think I was already heading down this path, and RAH simply reinforced my beliefs. Kind of like finding this website...it's nice to know you aren't TOTALLY alone in the world.
His books have had a large influence on my wife. When she got pregnant, I started reading to her out loud...we did it for the baby. The first book was Stranger in a Strange Land. Since then, I have read her every Heinlein book we can get our hands on. We have a daughter due in about two weeks, and plan on naming her Maureen, after the Heinlein character.
By the way...Friday was not a redhead. She was described as physically resembling a Native American, which is why it's amusing to have a copy of the book with a blond on the cover. Heinlein cared so little about race differences, that he never really made a point of it in his stories.
greg
Despite the cover
Since Friday was a mix of the best of us, I always pictured her as having very regular features, with something of a really good tan. And a slim, athletic body. Kinda like Halle Berry, in Catwoman.
Heinlein did discuss race obliquely a few times (Podkayne, for one was a pure blonde, while her uncle was Maori, and Colonel Colin Campbell was a close twin to Lazarus Long, except for the matter of skin color) but usually only to emphasize how little that difference mattered to his characters.
The only time he ever dealt directly (that I recall) with racism was in Farnham's Freehold... and aside from the plotline, I'm not quite sure if there was any kind of underlying point he was trying to make about the differences between blacks and whites or not...
Since Friday was a mix of the best of us, I always pictured her as having very regular features, with something of a really good tan. And a slim, athletic body. Kinda like Halle Berry, in Catwoman.
Heinlein did discuss race obliquely a few times (Podkayne, for one was a pure blonde, while her uncle was Maori, and Colonel Colin Campbell was a close twin to Lazarus Long, except for the matter of skin color) but usually only to emphasize how little that difference mattered to his characters.
The only time he ever dealt directly (that I recall) with racism was in Farnham's Freehold... and aside from the plotline, I'm not quite sure if there was any kind of underlying point he was trying to make about the differences between blacks and whites or not...
Jim Watson
Member
Well, Sixth Column was pretty strong on the Yellow Peril, even if Frank Mitsui was on the right side.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
Mention of specific firearms - -
RAH wrote of Thompson Submachine Guns in both Glory Road and Farnham's Freehold. I think there was a .22 magnum rifle in FF as well.
In Time Enough For Love, Lazarus bought a Colt .32 revolver and box of cartridges when about to depart for Mexico - - and ditched it when he cancelled his travel plans.
I DNR the title, but in one short story, a time traveller returns to his college and sends a pal for another friend's "ROTC pistol." Can't recall if there was further description, or if, given the time and place, I merely presumed it was a 1911.
Best,
Johnny
RAH wrote of Thompson Submachine Guns in both Glory Road and Farnham's Freehold. I think there was a .22 magnum rifle in FF as well.
In Time Enough For Love, Lazarus bought a Colt .32 revolver and box of cartridges when about to depart for Mexico - - and ditched it when he cancelled his travel plans.
I DNR the title, but in one short story, a time traveller returns to his college and sends a pal for another friend's "ROTC pistol." Can't recall if there was further description, or if, given the time and place, I merely presumed it was a 1911.
Best,
Johnny
No_Brakes23
Member
The Mall-Ninja Messiah.
confed sailor
Member
i may get flamed for this but,,,
Coventry, society's rejection of those who reject it's social contract, is the most outstanding concept i have ever read. In a society based on personal responsibility, the ability to expell those who are incapable of bearing the resposibility, not incarcerating them, to a place where they can enjoy the fruits of their anti-social deeds.
I personally think that coventry would be a wonderful way to deal with the unrepentant jackals that bounce in and out of the prison system.
(closing blast door)
Coventry, society's rejection of those who reject it's social contract, is the most outstanding concept i have ever read. In a society based on personal responsibility, the ability to expell those who are incapable of bearing the resposibility, not incarcerating them, to a place where they can enjoy the fruits of their anti-social deeds.
I personally think that coventry would be a wonderful way to deal with the unrepentant jackals that bounce in and out of the prison system.
(closing blast door)
Andrew Rothman
Member
Funny you should say that. I found "Stranger in a Strange Land" on my folks' bookshelf and it was all over.
RAH didn't make me a gunny. But his philosophy resonated with me, and influenced and clarified my thinking... which inevitably led to self-reliance, self-responsibility, and, well, sure, guns!
My liberal New York parents will one day plotz when they realize that it is all their fault I turned out this way.
Oh, and an author in the spirit, if not the genre, or Heinlein is certainly Joel Rosenberg (our own joelr).
Do you want to thank Heinlein for his influence on your thinking? Go give blood.
artherd
member
Damn guys, some of the quotes in this thread alone are bringing me near tears.
Yeah, I'm influenced.
Byron, spot on my friend.
Yeah, I'm influenced.
Byron, spot on my friend.
Number of the Beast had numerous mention of firearms (along with some decidedly odd sexual antics as it was written during Heinlens 'weird' phase). The fact that one of the central characters just happens to keep a fully stocked battle rifle with ammunition in the trunk of his aircar impressed the rest of the characters, who also just happened to have weapons galore stashed all over the place.
One of my personal favorites. Maybe its just me but for some reason it reads like a grainy piece of film noir, which i love.
One of my personal favorites. Maybe its just me but for some reason it reads like a grainy piece of film noir, which i love.
Heinlein's "Weird" Phase
Maybe it was the clot in the artery, maybe he was an "iconoclast," or maybe he was just playing "follow the zeitgeist" like so many authors of the era. Yeah, I know it is probably blasphemy to say that RAH was just another follower and not blazing a trail to Randian randy-ness.
He's not the only one who went through a "weird" phase 'round that time. When I read Niven & Pournelle's "Lucifer's Hammer" I sometimes laugh out loud because I get this picture of bad 1970's haircuts, leisure suits, and a "baump, ditty baump-baump" cheesey pr0n soundtrack.
Maybe he was less of an iconoclast and more a dirty old man who could now get away with outrageous bahvior. Kind of like a literary Jack Nicholson.
Maybe it was the clot in the artery, maybe he was an "iconoclast," or maybe he was just playing "follow the zeitgeist" like so many authors of the era. Yeah, I know it is probably blasphemy to say that RAH was just another follower and not blazing a trail to Randian randy-ness.
He's not the only one who went through a "weird" phase 'round that time. When I read Niven & Pournelle's "Lucifer's Hammer" I sometimes laugh out loud because I get this picture of bad 1970's haircuts, leisure suits, and a "baump, ditty baump-baump" cheesey pr0n soundtrack.
Maybe he was less of an iconoclast and more a dirty old man who could now get away with outrageous bahvior. Kind of like a literary Jack Nicholson.
so many years ago......
Read Boys Life stories, then at 8 got my hands on Have Spacesuit Will Travel; I was done.
My whole life has been utterly influenced by his writings, to the point where naming my daughters caused marital strife (first daughter Jennifer, named by her mother, second daughter Samantha Michele, so her initials would be SMG -- no Heinlein names).
But I have rebought and reread the books repeatedly and I always learn something new.
Second title? Podkayne of Mars.
Read Boys Life stories, then at 8 got my hands on Have Spacesuit Will Travel; I was done.
My whole life has been utterly influenced by his writings, to the point where naming my daughters caused marital strife (first daughter Jennifer, named by her mother, second daughter Samantha Michele, so her initials would be SMG -- no Heinlein names).
But I have rebought and reread the books repeatedly and I always learn something new.
Second title? Podkayne of Mars.
Sam
Member
"Who are the Heirs of Patrick Henry?"
Expanded Universe
Sam
Expanded Universe
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LoneStranger
Member
iapetus, not to say that I started reading RAH awhile back, but I actually have correspondence from Samuel Renshaw to me personally.
The most fascinating thing about RAH was how much of what he was saying and writing about can be traced independent of SciFi writhing in general. This is what resonates with most people. That there is a truth in what he is writing that exists outside of his writing.
The more you discover of the time and place of his upbringing the more you can assume that it was one of the golden eras in civilization. That is not to say that there were no warts but they could be dealt with.
His books are like a comfortable old shoe. You feel a joy in wearing them if only to go out to the garden, while being aware that if you wish they will carry you to great adventures.
The most fascinating thing about RAH was how much of what he was saying and writing about can be traced independent of SciFi writhing in general. This is what resonates with most people. That there is a truth in what he is writing that exists outside of his writing.
The more you discover of the time and place of his upbringing the more you can assume that it was one of the golden eras in civilization. That is not to say that there were no warts but they could be dealt with.
His books are like a comfortable old shoe. You feel a joy in wearing them if only to go out to the garden, while being aware that if you wish they will carry you to great adventures.
ive read and enjoyed many of Heinlein's books, but i don't think i would like the man very much at all.
His books were enjoyable to read, but they really bring to light what i see as very odd and disturbing psyche of R.H. Now, i am a firm believe that you reveal part of youself unconsiously when you write, paint, draw, or whatever. Take JRR Tolken, the man was a fan of pipe smoking and it shown through in his books.
Lets take my favorite tale, Starship Troopers. Great book. Great main character. But R.H.'s screwed up psyche shows up in the character of the father. Review. His father is vocally anti military, wants the kid to take over family business, kid goes marines, father disowns him. Father shows up at the end, all docile like a beaten dog, admits he is wrong, ends up serving under his son. Just too much of a juvenile fantasy of 'my parents are wrong! i hope X happens then they will come crawling back to me admitting they were wrong, and maybe ill let them come be servants in my big mansion'.
This really becomes evident in his book Farlain's Freehold (name may be wrong). I too enjoyed this book, saying 'what would i do in such and such a circumstance myself' But look at how this main character treats his son and wife. He supposedly thinks about divoce, but cannot do it because he made a vow on his wedding day, yet he is able to use the excuse of his wife in a moment of histeria to 'annul' their marriage. And his committment to his wedding day vow prevents him from divorcing his wife, but not from banging the college hottie his daughter brings home? Plus the incestuous nature of the father-daugher relation, when she tells him if she had to choose a lover to continue the human race, the daughter would chose the father, and he should already know that? Or letting the son take care of the mother, and thinks the boy deserves what he got when the boy co-operates then gets castrated, and doesn't realize how he as been domesticated? To me, that father didn't teach his son very well at all, and if he has no other regrets about the situaiton taht would should have appeared. No 'what kind of man am I to have failed to teach my son these critical values!' just 'his mother spoiled him, i could do nothing, he got what he deserved!'. Back to the wife. She was supposedly a great trooper when life was tough, but could not handle the 'easy life' when he got rich. Bull????. And even if that was the case, for man so hung up on his marital vows, why didn't he try and get her involved with a charity or some organization rather than laze around the house being fat and rich if that lazyness was what was destroying her? He supposedly builds this incredibly elaborate shelter because of his marital vows require him to look after her. How about you spend some time with your wife rather than spend 5 years constructing the perfect bomb shelter, maybe then you wouldn't have these marital problems.
Aside from psyche, i got a kick out of how this guy had a pair of .22 magnum rifles for the womenfolk. Guess what, if a bomb blows you back to the pioneer days, your womenfolk better be able to handle a 30-30, if not a 30-06. Also i got a laugh when this supposedly smart main character decided he would build an aquaduct to bring running water to the dwelling, from like 5 miles away! Building an aquaduct is the kind of work an entire city undertakes, not something 3 guys who fell out of the sky are going to be able to handle. Plus the idea that with the right books you can do anything. I am sorry, but nope. Books can lead and inform, but hands on experience is important too. I wouldn't let the smartest guy on earth perform a triple by-pass on me after just reading a few medical text books, I'd want an average intelligence doctor who had done it 50 times before.
Of course, happy man, happy wife, no bomb shelter = end of book in the first 2 chapters.
It's just really telling to me that heinlien included these what i see as negative characteristics in his main characters unconsiously. Normally he tries to build very perfect heros, I don't think he was trying to build in psychological problems the way some crime novelists have private eyes who have drinking problems and are on their 3rd marrage.
His books were enjoyable to read, but they really bring to light what i see as very odd and disturbing psyche of R.H. Now, i am a firm believe that you reveal part of youself unconsiously when you write, paint, draw, or whatever. Take JRR Tolken, the man was a fan of pipe smoking and it shown through in his books.
Lets take my favorite tale, Starship Troopers. Great book. Great main character. But R.H.'s screwed up psyche shows up in the character of the father. Review. His father is vocally anti military, wants the kid to take over family business, kid goes marines, father disowns him. Father shows up at the end, all docile like a beaten dog, admits he is wrong, ends up serving under his son. Just too much of a juvenile fantasy of 'my parents are wrong! i hope X happens then they will come crawling back to me admitting they were wrong, and maybe ill let them come be servants in my big mansion'.
This really becomes evident in his book Farlain's Freehold (name may be wrong). I too enjoyed this book, saying 'what would i do in such and such a circumstance myself' But look at how this main character treats his son and wife. He supposedly thinks about divoce, but cannot do it because he made a vow on his wedding day, yet he is able to use the excuse of his wife in a moment of histeria to 'annul' their marriage. And his committment to his wedding day vow prevents him from divorcing his wife, but not from banging the college hottie his daughter brings home? Plus the incestuous nature of the father-daugher relation, when she tells him if she had to choose a lover to continue the human race, the daughter would chose the father, and he should already know that? Or letting the son take care of the mother, and thinks the boy deserves what he got when the boy co-operates then gets castrated, and doesn't realize how he as been domesticated? To me, that father didn't teach his son very well at all, and if he has no other regrets about the situaiton taht would should have appeared. No 'what kind of man am I to have failed to teach my son these critical values!' just 'his mother spoiled him, i could do nothing, he got what he deserved!'. Back to the wife. She was supposedly a great trooper when life was tough, but could not handle the 'easy life' when he got rich. Bull????. And even if that was the case, for man so hung up on his marital vows, why didn't he try and get her involved with a charity or some organization rather than laze around the house being fat and rich if that lazyness was what was destroying her? He supposedly builds this incredibly elaborate shelter because of his marital vows require him to look after her. How about you spend some time with your wife rather than spend 5 years constructing the perfect bomb shelter, maybe then you wouldn't have these marital problems.
Aside from psyche, i got a kick out of how this guy had a pair of .22 magnum rifles for the womenfolk. Guess what, if a bomb blows you back to the pioneer days, your womenfolk better be able to handle a 30-30, if not a 30-06. Also i got a laugh when this supposedly smart main character decided he would build an aquaduct to bring running water to the dwelling, from like 5 miles away! Building an aquaduct is the kind of work an entire city undertakes, not something 3 guys who fell out of the sky are going to be able to handle. Plus the idea that with the right books you can do anything. I am sorry, but nope. Books can lead and inform, but hands on experience is important too. I wouldn't let the smartest guy on earth perform a triple by-pass on me after just reading a few medical text books, I'd want an average intelligence doctor who had done it 50 times before.
Of course, happy man, happy wife, no bomb shelter = end of book in the first 2 chapters.
It's just really telling to me that heinlien included these what i see as negative characteristics in his main characters unconsiously. Normally he tries to build very perfect heros, I don't think he was trying to build in psychological problems the way some crime novelists have private eyes who have drinking problems and are on their 3rd marrage.
confed sailor
Member
bobby was known to be a bit preachey, but hell they are ripping good yarns
Nehemiah Scudder
Member
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Robert who? j/k
Him as a writer? Really great. Him as a guy? He's a bit of a crackpot. Not that it's that bad or anything. Phillip K. Dick was another great writer and he was totally raving mad.
Him as a writer? Really great. Him as a guy? He's a bit of a crackpot. Not that it's that bad or anything. Phillip K. Dick was another great writer and he was totally raving mad.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Nehemiah, the problem with the "crackpot" notion is that if you read his non-fiction essays, there's a serious shortage of crackpotism.
I never was fortunate enough to meet the man, but I don't recall reading or hearing comments about crackpotism. My guess is that when you add a quirky sense of humor with a rather high degree of intelligence, the stirring can result in deliberately disturbing writings...
, Art
I never was fortunate enough to meet the man, but I don't recall reading or hearing comments about crackpotism. My guess is that when you add a quirky sense of humor with a rather high degree of intelligence, the stirring can result in deliberately disturbing writings...
, ArtGuy L Johnson
Member
For Those Whavent Read RAH
Get of your butts and get them they are very good, I have read them all some twice, The first one was for a book report(In 7th Grade in late 60s) with a limited list to choose from the only SiFi on the list (and the longest and most controversial) was "Stranger in a Strange Land" and i was hooked (was quite book and all those stone tablets were hard to carry around).
Another author that got my attention later was "Orson Scott Card" starting with "Enders Game" and the rest of that sirise read the whols serise/
Guy L Johnson
Get of your butts and get them they are very good, I have read them all some twice, The first one was for a book report(In 7th Grade in late 60s) with a limited list to choose from the only SiFi on the list (and the longest and most controversial) was "Stranger in a Strange Land" and i was hooked (was quite book and all those stone tablets were hard to carry around).
Another author that got my attention later was "Orson Scott Card" starting with "Enders Game" and the rest of that sirise read the whols serise/
Guy L Johnson
karlsgunbunker
Member
If you haven't read Heinlein you might as well be illiterate.
My girl friend turned me on to Heinlein when I was 21. I've read every Heinlein book currently in print. My paperbacks wore out now I buy hardcovers.
F.Y.I. SFBC has a lot of heinlein in hardcover courtesy of his wife. Buy them read them save them for your kids.
My girl friend turned me on to Heinlein when I was 21. I've read every Heinlein book currently in print. My paperbacks wore out now I buy hardcovers.
F.Y.I. SFBC has a lot of heinlein in hardcover courtesy of his wife. Buy them read them save them for your kids.
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