Is there any way citizens and LE can come together and make it work like it is suppos

FeebMaster:

Thank you for defending our freedom. You're a hero.

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No, thank our legislators and the voters who put them in office. BTW, we also pulled 14 drunk drivers off the road and arrested a number of felons with warrants. Fortunately for you, we took the felons to jail and not to your house. No, don't thank us, it's not necessary, it's all in a night's work.

TRH:

The situation you describe, where everyone is in violation of one law or another at any given time every day, and the cops can pick and choose which citizens to give a hard time over the violation, is the very definition of tyranny, and the very opposite of the rule of law.

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I agree with your point, which is the very basis of Atlas Shrugged. It's impossible to control law-abiding citizens. Make everyone a criminal or worried that they've violated some law and you can control them much more easily. It sucks, but that seems to be the situation that we're in. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I try to use as much common sense as possible. We keep calling for the same thing from, say, our airport security screeners, but the civil rights lawyers still scream if they don't search as many blonde haired blue-eyed grannies as they do young men of Middle Eastern descent, despite the fact that all the terrorists who have attacked us to date fit the latter general description rather than the former.

We used to make it a practice to tow the vehicles of unlicensed drivers until the city attorney noticed that 90% of the vehicles we were towing belonged to Hispanic immigrants. Duh, that's because 90% of the unlicensed drivers in this area are Hispanic immigrants. This is not a biased opinion, just an observation of fact. The upshot is that we must give them an opportunity to call a licensed driver and then wait for that driver to arrive, since the city is liable if the vehicle is damaged while waiting for the other driver. This means that a unit on patrol that might otherwise be looking for *real* criminals is effectively tied down for a couple hours.

Why all the details? Just to give a sense of how careful police officers (at least in my area) have had to become to avoid lawsuits.

I am not blaming you, in this instance. The problem is with the fact that 1) everyone is in violation of a number of laws every day, and 2) that cops have discretion over who they are going to actually apply the laws to. That is a case of one plus one equalling the very definition of tyranny.

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I appreciate the fact that you're not blaming the rank and file officers. I'll also point out that if the police tried to enforce all the laws on everybody all the time, we'd never have enough manpower or time to catch the real crooks. This is a sad fact: a power addled officer can make your life a lot harder. Fortunately, the majority of us don't fit that description. So, to get back to the topic of this thread, what can we do to help people in and out of law enforcement understand each other? I'd suggest signing up for a ride-along program if one becomes available in your area. Get to know your local police. We're your neighbors, send our kids to the same schools, have many of the same concerns. It's when people are split apart into hostile camps that they become easier to manipulate.

And every cop that tells you that speeding laws are about safety instead of revenue is either lying or very stupid.

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In my traffic class I asked my students if they were fined for their behavior or taxed. I maintained that they were taxed. Fines are designed to stop aberrant behavior. Taxes are designed to make money off of stigmatized but acceptable behavior. If the state truly wanted them to stop speeding, speeding tickets would be $1,000 instead of $100, and/or the state would authorize seizure of the offender's vehicle to be sold at public auction. The offender would still be responsible to pay off the bank or finance company.

However, I think it would be better for police to remember that those they are attempting to babysit are in fact adults. Adults are responsible for the outcomes of their own actions. It isnt your responsibility to protect us from ourselves. It is your job to apprehend us when we harm others.

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A noble thought, trusting the masses to be self-disciplined and self-regulating. However, as the examples of mass lawlessness in New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina so amply demonstrated, it just won't happen. One night while working in the fog choked San Joaquin Valley, I 'escorted' probably 100 Department of Corrections employees, most of them sworn peace officers, at a safe speed of 35 mph. I dare say had I not been there they would have charged through the 200' visibilty fog at their usual speed of 65-70 mph in a posted 55 mph speed limit on a two lane highway. I'm sure they cussed me out, and were all late to work because they did not allow for the fog in leaving their homes earlier, but they got to work in one piece.

A recurring thought is;

Oh - one more thing - we're not "civilians" to you. We are "citizens" - or alternatively "customers". Try to remember that.

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Actually, the more appropriate title would be "employer." You should be treated as such.

I appreciate the fact that you're not blaming the rank and file officers. I'll also point out that if the police tried to enforce all the laws on everybody all the time, we'd never have enough manpower or time to catch the real crooks. This is a sad fact: a power addled officer can make your life a lot harder. Fortunately, the majority of us don't fit that description.

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Yes, I understand that. A tyrant can actually be a good guy too. History reveals that there were the occasional good tyrants (Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius come to mind), but that is little comfort. No one should have tyranical powers in our society, no matter how wisely they individually choose to use those powers.

So, to get back to the topic of this thread, what can we do to help people in and out of law enforcement understand each other? I'd suggest signing up for a ride-along program if one becomes available in your area. Get to know your local police. We're your neighbors, send our kids to the same schools, have many of the same concerns. It's when people are split apart into hostile camps that they become easier to manipulate.

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That could help a little, I guess, but since the problem is the system, this is rather like putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

A recurring thought is;

Oh - one more thing - we're not "civilians" to you. We are "citizens" - or alternatively "customers". Try to remember that.

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Actually, the more appropriate title would be "employer." You should be treated as such.

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From Merriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry: ci·vil·ian
Pronunciation: s&-'vil-y&n also -'vi-y&n
Function: noun
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2 a : one not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force b : OUTSIDER 1
- civilian adjective

By the way, 'employer', I'd like a raise.

That could help a little, I guess, but since the problem is the system, this is rather like putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

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Actually, getting civilians to do ride-alongs helps a lot. Most people's skewed view of law enforcement comes from schlock television shows, biased news reports, and friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend's 'bad cop story' where they swear they weren't doing anything wrong.

In order to change 'the system' effectively, the general populous has to get some idea of what 'the system' is. A ride-along would provide this. The person riding along can talk to the officer and find out what is really happening. Opening up lines of communication would go a long way in evaporating a lot of the cop-bashing that goes on...particularly here on THR.

As someone who is in early process of becoming an LEO, (That is to say putting out the apps, undergoing background checks, etc,) I have mixed emotions on this issue. I view police as a necessary evil, just like govt and military.

Some of this has to do with bad LEOs/LEAs, but most of it has to do with public perception. As stated elsewhere in this thread, you don't notice the drunk drivers and violent felons the cops collar, because they get caught. What you notice is the cop farming that illegal speed trap when you were late for work.

Traffic related stuff is my big beef with most LEOs, but we could make an entire separate thread debating quotas and revenue generation. It would just turn into a cop-bashing thread, though. The minor relevance to this thread is that I feel it is just one more thing that gives LEOs a bad rep.

...it isn't up to police officers what gets enforced...

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Yeah, actually it is a lot of the time. Selective enforcement is simply a statistical necessity. Most LEOs I have talked to state that many of these laws are primarily in existance as a justification to get people guilty of larger crimes. During a recent ride-along, a good friend of mine demonstrated a certain amount of apathy towards minor traffic violations, but one of his supervisors demonstrated and verbalized a giddy joy about pulling over as many people as he could for traffic related offenses.

As for the people that get upset about cops using the terms "civilian" or acting like a separate class, well, they are. Wrong or right, that gun and more importantly that badge make them so.While they are theoretically held accountable for what they do, they are a different class of citizen.

Actually, getting civilians to do ride-alongs helps a lot.

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It certainly is an eye-opener.

As for the people that get upset about cops using the terms "civilian" or acting like a separate class, well, they are. Wrong or right, that gun and more importantly that badge make them so.While they are theoretically held accountable for what they do, they are a different class of citizen.

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That makes me sick.

What about doctors? Are they a different class of citizen? Lawyers? Any other profession?

Is this just another way of saying that everyone is special? (so no one is)

Cops are just people doing job as are we all. There is nothing special about them anymore than there is for anyone in any profession.

And don't forget where your authority come from. WE THE PEOPLE Without us, you have nothing and are nothing.

You will make a great cop, you already have the cop attitude.

M-Rex,
Good point about the ride-alongs.

LVMPD (Las Vegas Metro) and others, have a "Citizen's Police Academy" which is a "Good Thing". An eye-opener as it were. Talk to "Actual Cops", listen to actual cops, see a miniscule portion of what they see, hear what they hear, go where they go, and actually watch them do what they do.

The academy gives our citizens first-hand information on how and why the Department operates, and examining the culture of police work and the organization. It provides an excellent opportunity for the citizens to interact with Department members. The program first started under the direction of then Sheriff John Moran in 1991. Sheriff Bill Young has continued the program and we now have a waiting list for this very popular program. The Citizens' Police Academy has had over 1,100 graduates from the program and look forward to even more of our outstanding citizens participating in this program in the years to come.

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I was fortunate to be the first graduate (alphabetically speaking) of the class 1-91.
Metro also has a First Tuesday.

The Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department's 1st Tuesday program is an excellent opportunity for the citizenry of Las Vegas to get involved with their police department. The first Tuesday of every month we open the doors to our substations from 7 to 9 p.m. in order for our community to have an open forum of communication with the police officers who patrol their neighborhoods.

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http://www.lvmpd.com/

A good example of a Department that knows the value of "training their Customers" and opening their doors. Still, some are never satisfied.

But then again, Las Vegas Nevada is not Baltimore, MD.

Far, far easier it is, to sit and complain about My Tax Dollars (where do the Cops tax dollars go I wonder?) than to actually "Do Something" positive about the situation. Like helping to Police your own neighborhood for awhile and see how effective you are?

Make it work like it's supposed to?

I'd say it works far better than it has any right to, considering the well known American distrust for authority coupled with our legislators never-ending flow of new laws to be enforced with ensuing taxes(fines) generated/raised for services rendered (thankyouverymuch).

All of the Policemen I've met and dealt with, are without exception, fine members of this community and seem to reflect this community with it's good, it's bad and it's ugly. 95% of the least desireable are washed out in the process of their training.

I am certainly glad that our society still has enough gumption and honest citizenry to find a few good men and women to walk the beat and keep the streets, homes and businesses relatively safe. Perhaps if I lived in Baltimore, I'd be singing the blues.

Based on responses from LEOs every time this is raised I get the distinct impression that things are exactly how they want them. They want to be counted seperately. The problem is that we arent bowing and scraping enough.

That's crap, c yeager; I'm seeing a lot of well-reasoned and conciliatory posts by LEOs. What I see is that there seem to be a lot of THR members who want to maintain an adversarial relationship with law enforcement.

They want to be counted seperately. The problem is that we arent bowing and scraping enough.

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Methinks you need to get out of the house a little bit more.

Methinks you need to get out of the house a little bit more.

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Maybe.

Then again 3 out of the 4 people who identified themselves as police officers in this thread seem to uphold my statement.

From Merriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry: ci·vil·ian
Pronunciation: s&-'vil-y&n also -'vi-y&n
Function: noun
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2 a : one not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force b : OUTSIDER 1
- civilian adjective

By the way, 'employer', I'd like a raise.

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No, thank our legislators and the voters who put them in office. BTW, we also pulled 14 drunk drivers off the road and arrested a number of felons with warrants. Fortunately for you, we took the felons to jail and not to your house. No, don't thank us, it's not necessary, it's all in a night's work.

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I think people sometimes forget the reason law enforcement exists...We are the ones who deal with that which you do not want to deal with. Almost like garbage collectors...If it stinks, is nasty, and can hurt you, guess what? I'm the guy you call.

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That's crap, c yeager; I'm seeing a lot of well-reasoned and conciliatory posts by LEOs. What I see is that there seem to be a lot of THR members who want to maintain an adversarial relationship with law enforcement.

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Which thread are you reading? I see a whole lot of Us vs Them. There is an adversarial relationship because we are adversaries. Law enforcement stopped working for the average citizen a long time ago.

It seems that the biggest duty for law enforcement right now is securing capital from the citizenry. How often do you see how excited police departments get when they start doing drug seizures? How about traffic enforcement? Its all about making money and all to many police departments seem willing to play the strong arm of the state in seperating it from the people it belongs to.

M-Rex;

From Merriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry: ci·vil·ian
Pronunciation: s&-'vil-y&n also -'vi-y&n
Function: noun
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2 a : one not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force b : OUTSIDER 1
- civilian adjective

By the way, 'employer', I'd like a raise.

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It is this arrogance that builds that wall between "us and them." I take it you don't think you work for the general public? Who do you work for, the government? Who do you think funds that government?

The fact is the people of the community elect a governing body which, provides for the common good. One of the things this governing body does as representatives of the people is provide law enforcement and peacekeeping within the community. They do that by hiring, on the publics behalf, you. You are paid with money levied from the taxpayers. Your equipment is provided by the taxpayers. You can take the governing body and change it anyway you want and still continue to provide police services. Take away the taxpayers and you no longer have the ability to fund your department and you will be out of a job.

Whether you like it or not, you owe your livelihood to those people who depend on you. Do not look down on them, they are the ones who pay you and they are most assuradly your employers. Treat them with the respect they are due and they will return the courtesy in kind.

By the way, I have been a government employee for twentyfive years. I have the respect of most of the people I serve because I respect them.

Subject to USMJ, you are not a civilian. Subject o civil laws (LEO's are), you are a civilian.

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I think you mean UCMJ, Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Pilgrim

It is this arrogance that builds that wall between "us and them." I take it you don't think you work for the general public? Who do you work for, the government? Who do you think funds that government?

The fact is the people of the community elect a governing body which, provides for the common good. One of the things this governing body does as representatives of the people is provide law enforcement and peacekeeping within the community. They do that by hiring, on the publics behalf, you. You are paid with money levied from the taxpayers. Your equipment is provided by the taxpayers. You can take the governing body and change it anyway you want and still continue to provide police services. Take away the taxpayers and you no longer have the ability to fund your department and you will be out of a job.

Whether you like it or not, you owe your livelihood to those people who depend on you. Do not look down on them, they are the ones who pay you and they are most assuradly your employers. Treat them with the respect they are due and they will return the courtesy in kind.

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I didn't write it. I just looked it up.

What I see are cops who are a part of the communities in which they serve. I see a group of THR members who are allowing their anti-cop bigotry to show under the facade of 'libertarianism'. I equate it to sprinkling glitter on a dog turd and trying to pass it off as a cupcake.

All I'm seeing from the anti-cop bigots in this thread (and others unfortunately) are uneducated, ignorant opinions based on heresay, 'bad cop stories' and 'get-even-with-them-ism'.

To those of you who believe law enforcement officers are held to a different standard than regular civilians, I say, absolutely right. Law enforcement officers carry greater responsibilities, every day, than ordinary citizens. If a 'joe citizen' gets a speeding ticket. All it is, is a point on his/her driving record. If an officer gets one, it becomes part of his/her personnel file. Departmental discipline may result, and the officer's livlihood may be impacted. That's why every once in a while, when an officer does something stupid, the lead line on the news is, "former LEO such and such was arrested...". When was the last time you heard, "former cubicle worker so and so was convicted of..."?

I see more civilians who are anti-cop than I see cops who are anti-civilian. It's sad.

Cops, anti-civilian, you mean they, the cops, hate themselves as well?

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You're just being silly. Nice topic dodge.

I see a group of THR members who are allowing their anti-cop bigotry to show under the facade of 'libertarianism'.

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I hope you are not lumping me in with that group. If you are you obviously have not been paying attention.

I agree with your annoyance with the tendency of every LEO related thread to become a cop bashing forum. My first post on this thread addressed that very issue with a challenge to those who are quick to point out the flaws in LEOs. I challenged them to look at themselves and their behavior first. Then I read your post which I took as resentment of me for refering to LEO as employees of the public, which is exactly what we are.

Being entrusted with any role in the criminal justice system is a responsibility, not a privilage. It doesn't make you above the public you serve, it makes you responsible to the public you serve. All I'm saying is that it is important to remember that you work for those you serve, and should give them the respect and courtesy yo expect to recieve.

Now take a deep breath, it's going to be all right.

I agree with your annoyance with the tendency of every LEO related thread to become a cop bashing forum.

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Does it tell you something though? Everytime a discussion regarding police officers appears on any forum outside of LE forums it turns into a cop-bashing thread. And this is accross the spectrum of political thought. Go to a liberal forum and you have the same thing. Heck, go to a gardening forum and you can find the same phenomena.

I wonder why that is? It seems to be the only thing everyone has in common.

I challenged them to look at themselves and their behavior first. Then I read your post which I took as resentment of me for refering to LEO as employees of the public, which is exactly what we are.

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LEO's are employees of the public at large, ultimately. I did not mean to give the impression otherwise. As I stated, I didn't write the definition. I just looked it up. Though I do know a few LEO's who treated the populous with arrogance, they were in the extreme minority. Many others appeared to be aloof when dealing with the public at large. However, this was the natural result of the antagonism they faced from 'good citizens' who chronically complained and mischaracterized officers (much like the anti-cop bigots that troll these boards). Hence, the officers simply walled themselves off from the daily, grinding abuse, and went about their jobs with as little contact as possible with the citizens at large. This just widened the 'us vs. them' gulf between the two groups. I find the reactions of both groups to be somewhat confusing considering the shared goals of safe communities.

In my own experience, I remember when I was in college. I met a young woman whom I hadn't seen since grade school. We met on campus and chit-chatted for a few minutes and caught up on what had been happening with each other over the years. The topic moved to the subject of our majors. Hers was accounting. I congratulated her on her chosen field. when she asked me mine, I responded, I'm a Criminal Justice major. She blurted, "You're gonna be a cop?" I said yes. All humor left her face, she flipped me off, and stormed off in a huff. That is a true story. Now tell me, what should my reaction have been?

These 'employers', as you say, hired me to enforce the laws that they themselves voted to have enacted. They should not gripe when they are made to live within those laws as, ultimately, it is their own fault for enacting them.

In short: Don't want to get hassled by the law enforcement 'you' hired? Then don't break the law 'you' enacted.

Not a dodge at all. You infered that cops are not civilians, they are, so if they hate civilians, they hate themselves.

When SOME LEO's stop looking at themselves as a soldier, and come to realize that they are, in fact, civilians, no better or worse than someone who is not an LEO, then, some of the problems spoke of in this thread will get solved.

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Again...artful dodge. Go back and re-read my post.

In regards to your post quoted above, the same could be said for SOME CIVILIANS who spew forth a 'holier-than-thou' attitude when dealing with law enforcement officers. Don't you think?

Go do a ride-along with some of the officers who patrol your streets. Talk to them. Get to know them. You'll find that some of the truths you cling to are based largely on your own point of view. (Geeky Star Wars reference free of charge.)